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We should try to emulate Southern Miss in our rebound


Harry
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In 2013, the year we had the 9-4 "Mac Mirage" season and won a bowl game to boot, our friends in Hattiesburg went 1-11 as a member of the newly reconfigured C-USA.  That was Coach Todd Monken's first season at Southern Miss, a season in which he inherited a USM program that went 0-12 the year before.  Monken would weather a tough first season and then in 2014 get three wins (3-9).  Monken won the west with USM in 2015 and came up just short of Washington in the Heart of Dallas Bowl.

So Harry, why does this pertain to good ole UNT?

Well for one thing, Monken replace the "defensive minded" Ellis Johnson at USM.  Sound familiar?  Johnson — whose defensive-minded pedigree always seemed to be a poor fit with the Golden Eagles — was owed a $2.1 million buyout over the next three seasons.  Sound familiar?

Monken was an offensive minded coach that opened up the Southern Miss system and playbook.  It took time, and just like here -- it won't happen overnight but he recruited well and was no longer the most predictable team on the C-USA schedule.   He took at QB who was struggling in Nick Mullens and developed him into one of the best in C-USA.  I specifically remember when Southern Miss beat us at home in 2014 - you know that place where we rarely lost under Mac - how much bigger and faster the USM personnel was.  Keep in mind, Monken hadn't been there two years yet!  Recruiting matters folks, and it wasn't just skill positions, their linemen were 2-3 inches taller and lean.  They were demolishing us on the line of scrimmage.

USM has a better history than UNT that cannot be debated.  However, I would argue that UNT has more talent available to them than USM does just in terms of location.  I also believe UNT has a better budget, as well as academics and facilities.

I remember that game signaling that something was terribly wrong in the Mac regime.  We should have not seen that type of talent drop off after winning a damn bowl game the year before!  What pained me then now gives me hope for the future under Coach Littrell.  It can be done. gmg

 

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Absolutely.

I've posted this same thing a number of times. USM is our blueprint. TBH, SMU is following their pattern, too.

USM--In 2013, one of the worst teams in the country, wins one game, wins three in 2014, wins 9 games, the CUSA West, and a HoD Bowl berth in 2015, program on solid footing and coach gets hired away

SMU--In 2014,worst team in the country, coach leaves, they win 1 game, hire new offensive minded coach, win 2 games, ready to see what happens in Morris' 2nd season, if successful, will get a huge raise at SMU and will get hired away by the end of season 3 on the Hilltop.

UNT--worst team in the country in 2015, fires coach, wins 1 game, hire new offensive minded coach, hope to win a game or two this season and show progress on field and in the locker room

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I've said I like being in a conference with Southern Miss.  They do a lot of things right.  Things that we should be doing here.  A few years ago, the had the "anyone, anywhere" attitude.  If we have to play road games to finance my Mean Green habit, let's win some of those game.  Let's make Apogee the place to be on home game afternoons.  The opponent is irrelevant.  North Texas is at home and I'm/we're going. 

 

Cut out a pattern of Southern Miss success and lay it out for North Texas to follow.  We could do worse (and we have).

 

GO MEAN GREEN

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Fun fact - Fedora was the head coach for Southern Miss from 2008 to 2011 and left USM to coach at North Carolina. In 2016 North Texas hires Seth Littrell (formerly the Assistant Head Coach UNC) to coach our football team.

Interesting that all of our roads keep leading back to USM.

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Nick Mullens never struggled before Monken. Monken & Lindsey recruited him and developed him. Threw him to the wolves early and let him get his bumps and bruises. Does Littrell have that guy he is ready to do that with? I'd say no.

I would argue that Mississippi is a very good state for football recruiting. Lots of good JUCO programs around that USM tapped into. Having lived there before I'd say their high school football teams are pretty legit too. I was amazed how big a lot of their high school football prospects looked compared to the Texas kids.

The plan is pretty general get faster, bigger, stronger and find a QB. Pretty much what every team tries to do.

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15 hours ago, BillySee58 said:

Ellis Johnson was fired after that one season. His first one there.

More than that, the AD that hired Johnson retired soon after his hiring.  His successor, Jeff Hammond, was not rehired after firing Coach Johnson.  So who was the "real AD" that UNT90 was referring to?

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34 minutes ago, GrayEagle said:

More than that, the AD that hired Johnson retired soon after his hiring.  His successor, Jeff Hammond, was not rehired after firing Coach Johnson.  So who was the "real AD" that UNT90 was referring to?

Southern Miss did what almost every single athletic department does when they have failure in a revenue sport--they fixed it as soon as possible by firing the coach and letting go of the AD as soon as it was also feasible to do so.

I think there are a lot of people on this site that are gonna be sorely disappointed and shocked when RV is still the AD here beyond 2018, when his current contract expires. He's gonna figure out a way to extend Benford, Jalie, or Littrell and get an extension of his own. And the BOR will be just fine with it, as long as the UNT 17 keep paying the bills above the budgeted allotment that the athletic fee provides.

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23 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

Southern Miss did what almost every single athletic department does when they have failure in a revenue sport--they fixed it as soon as possible by firing the coach and letting go of the AD as soon as it was also feasible to do so.

I think there are a lot of people on this site that are gonna be sorely disappointed and shocked when RV is still the AD here beyond 2018, when his current contract expires. He's gonna figure out a way to extend Benford, Jalie, or Littrell and get an extension of his own. And the BOR will be just fine with it, as long as the UNT 17 keep paying the bills above the budgeted allotment that the athletic fee provides.

They got rid of their coach by paying him somewhere around 2.1 million or so dollars. In order to raise that kind of money in a short period of time, USM sold the sole home game that they had agreed to as part of a 2-for-1 deal with the University of Nebraska for about 2.2 million or so dollars. For 2013 Southern Miss only had Texas State, FIU, North Texas, FAU, and Middle Tennessee for home games. If it weren't for the Nebraska game that was to be played at USM in 2013 I'm not sure they could have done much about their head coach situation as quickly as they did.

Some on this board love to ride the "17" as keeping the athletic program down whereas I don't think those people understand that without them, it is likely that McCarney would still be coaching the football team short of having to sell off a home game like USM did just to raise the needed funds to buy out the contract.

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2 hours ago, Mean_Green09 said:

Nick Mullens never struggled before Monken. Monken & Lindsey recruited him and developed him. Threw him to the wolves early and let him get his bumps and bruises. Does Littrell have that guy he is ready to do that with? I'd say no. I agree they threw him to the wolves but the bottomline is he was developed under Monken and I can see similar development possibilities for us with Littrell's system and Graham.  Perhaps Mason Fine?  Could a transfer be in the works?  We shall see.

I would argue that Mississippi is a very good state for football recruiting. Lots of good JUCO programs around that USM tapped into. Having lived there before I'd say their high school football teams are pretty legit too. I was amazed how big a lot of their high school football prospects looked compared to the Texas kids.  I don't doubt that Mississippi has some good Juco teams but don't they get cherry picked by the p5 to my understanding?  Texas has better and more high school talent in my opinion.

The plan is pretty general get faster, bigger, stronger and find a QB. Pretty much what every team tries to do. Indeed.

 

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1 hour ago, UNTFan23 said:

They got rid of their coach by paying him somewhere around 2.1 million or so dollars. In order to raise that kind of money in a short period of time, USM sold the sole home game that they had agreed to as part of a 2-for-1 deal with the University of Nebraska for about 2.2 million or so dollars. For 2013 Southern Miss only had Texas State, FIU, North Texas, FAU, and Middle Tennessee for home games. If it weren't for the Nebraska game that was to be played at USM in 2013 I'm not sure they could have done much about their head coach situation as quickly as they did.

Some on this board love to ride the "17" as keeping the athletic program down whereas I don't think those people understand that without them, it is likely that McCarney would still be coaching the football team short of having to sell off a home game like USM did just to raise the needed funds to buy out the contract.

This is a bogus comment. They have like octuple the amount of donors that we do. If they wanted him gone he would be gone regardless of some scheduling rearrangement to make it happen. Your post was nothing but a defensive post full of crap. 

And not to argue your point at all Harry, but MM Roberts is a pretty nice stadium. It has a "big time" feel to it. 

Edited by Ben Gooding
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6 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

This is a bogus comment. They have like octuple the amount of donors that we do. If they wanted him gone he would be gone regardless of some scheduling rearrangement to make it happen. Your post was nothing but a defensive post full of crap. 

Stop being an idiot.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/eye-on-college-football/21192118/report-southern-miss-gives-up-home-game-to-pay-ellis-johnsons-buyout

 

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24 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

This is a bogus comment. They have like octuple the amount of donors that we do. If they wanted him gone he would be gone regardless of some scheduling rearrangement to make it happen. Your post was nothing but a defensive post full of crap. 

Sorry, you couldn't be more wrong:

Deadspin

Yahoo Sports

Why do these article keep mentioning that USM was deep in debt if there isn't at least an ounce of truth? It sounds like USM was looking to offload the home game against Nebraska long before the firing of their football coach. These articles certainly make it seem like USM couldn't buy out the failed coach on a whim.

Edited by UNTFan23
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2 hours ago, UNTFan23 said:

They got rid of their coach by paying him somewhere around 2.1 million or so dollars. In order to raise that kind of money in a short period of time, USM sold the sole home game that they had agreed to as part of a 2-for-1 deal with the University of Nebraska for about 2.2 million or so dollars. For 2013 Southern Miss only had Texas State, FIU, North Texas, FAU, and Middle Tennessee for home games. If it weren't for the Nebraska game that was to be played at USM in 2013 I'm not sure they could have done much about their head coach situation as quickly as they did.

Some on this board love to ride the "17" as keeping the athletic program down whereas I don't think those people understand that without them, it is likely that McCarney would still be coaching the football team short of having to sell off a home game like USM did just to raise the needed funds to buy out the contract.

Meanwhile, that schedule has been par for the UNT course half the time the last 4 years.

Dire circumstances at USM = the norm at UNT?

I'd rather have McCarney still coaching than the Hattiesburg Hustler still hustling.    McCarney only affected football, the Hattiesburg Hustler affects them all.

Edited by UNT90
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1 hour ago, Harry said:

 

More high school players to choose from yes, but better talent probably not.

http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/sec-football/sec-states-produce-tons-of-fbs-talent/

When you look at where USM targeted most of their players from in Monken's classes it was Mississippi, Bama, and Louisiana. They got higher quality players in probably a tougher area to recruit. 

Also to your point on the battle in the trenches. Monken was getting recruits from SEC affiliated states. Its been no question that the SEC has been so dominant over the past few years because of their DL's and OL's. 

I dont mean to turn this into a battle of which state has better high school football. 

I dont think we have to emulate anybody on how to build a team. Just go find players that fit this system, which shouldnt be hard to do in Texas.

I do think we need to emulate a couple of programs in marketing and off the field strategy. We are way behind in that area. We need more innovation and creativity to flow through the athletic dept. 

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I think we should just play at name-your-P5-giant this upcoming year or next if it means that we would be able to get rid of Benford and RV now. Besides, you all can enjoy Apogee with hundreds of other people when Butt Cookman, Incarnate Word, Lamar, and Abilene Christian come to town, taking dollars away from us that could be used better if we are just so poor that paying off Tony Benford's last year of a contract worth $325k is not deemed "feasible".

Trust me, we would be better off taking an extra whore payment if it improved our personnel. Paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to Portland State, who then ripped us a new one to the point of costing somebody $2.1 million dollars, was not a good use of our funds, to put it mildly. And our awesome AD gave us that PSU debacle as THE ONLY OOC GAME IN A BRAND NEW STADIUM THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BRING IN BETTER OPPONENTS...

Not a dime, not another second until RV is gone...and we are totally prepared for that day to be a loooooonnnnnnnggggg time from now.

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4 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

I think we should just play at name-your-P5-giant this upcoming year or next if it means that we would be able to get rid of Benford and RV now. Besides, you all can enjoy Apogee with hundreds of other people when Butt Cookman, Incarnate Word, Lamar, and Abilene Christian come to town, taking dollars away from us that could be used better if we are just so poor that paying off Tony Benford's last year of a contract worth $325k is not deemed "feasible".

Trust me, we would be better off taking an extra whore payment if it improved our personnel. Paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to Portland State, who then ripped us a new one to the point of costing somebody $2.1 million dollars, was not a good use of our funds, to put it mildly. And our awesome AD gave us that PSU debacle as THE ONLY OOC GAME IN A BRAND NEW STADIUM THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BRING IN BETTER OPPONENTS...

Not a dime, not another second until RV is gone...and we are totally prepared for that day to be a loooooonnnnnnnggggg time from now.

Again, you have the right to your opinion.  However, people need to stop glossing over the fact the Mac buyout hampers a lot of what we can do right now.  It lessens our available options.  We have to stop ignoring the fact that Mac's $2.4 MILLION dollar buyout is the biggest personnel expenditure in the history of the UNT system.  If you want to focus in on mistakes, let's rewind to after the bowl win in 2014 when we redid the Mac deal.  I raise my hand guilty as charged thinking that was the right thing to do at the time.  We were coming off of the high water mark for me as a fan winning a bowl game on New Years day.  We were drunk with optimism.  I speak for myself and I believe the majority... there will be those who claim they were against it but their numbers were few.   In hindsight, it was a terrible, terrible mistake.  It impacted what we could do for a new staff, the Benford issue and many other projects that could have used that money like baseball etc.

To think buying out Tony's contract did not have some direct tie-in to the Mac buyout disaster is naive.  Notice that Mac has not resurfaced and probably will not until the entire buyout is in his bank.  I wish we had a unlimited source of funding to tap into but we do not.

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42 minutes ago, Harry said:

Again, you have the right to your opinion.  However, people need to stop glossing over the fact the Mac buyout hampers a lot of what we can do right now.  It lessens our available options.  We have to stop ignoring the fact that Mac's $2.4 MILLION dollar buyout is the biggest personnel expenditure in the history of the UNT system.  If you want to focus in on mistakes, let's rewind to after the bowl win in 2014 when we redid the Mac deal.  I raise my hand guilty as charged thinking that was the right thing to do at the time.  We were coming off of the high water mark for me as a fan winning a bowl game on New Years day.  We were drunk with optimism.  I speak for myself and I believe the majority... there will be those who claim they were against it but their numbers were few.   In hindsight, it was a terrible, terrible mistake.  It impacted what we could do for a new staff, the Benford issue and many other projects that could have used that money like baseball etc.

To think buying out Tony's contract did not have some direct tie-in to the Mac buyout disaster is naive.  Notice that Mac has not resurfaced and probably will not until the entire buyout is in his bank.  I wish we had a unlimited source of funding to tap into but we do not.

Hmm, I think Benford's buyout could have been made up with one or two extra guarantee basketball games.

Also, unlike Mac he is far more likely to coach again so it's likely we wouldn't have had to pick up the entire amount...

eta: we've been longtime basketball season ticket holders and I would have gladly given up a couple of home games to finally be rid of Benford...

Edited by Army of Dad
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13 minutes ago, Harry said:

Again, you have the right to your opinion.  However, people need to stop glossing over the fact the Mac buyout hampers a lot of what we can do right now.  It lessens our available options.  We have to stop ignoring the fact that Mac's $2.4 MILLION dollar buyout is the biggest personnel expenditure in the history of the UNT system.  If you want to focus in on mistakes, let's rewind to after the bowl win in 2014 when we redid the Mac deal.  I raise my hand guilty as charged thinking that was the right thing to do at the time.  We were coming off of the high water mark for me as a fan winning a bowl game on New Years day.  We were drunk with optimism.  I speak for myself and I believe the majority... there will be those who claim they were against it but their numbers were few.   In hindsight, it was a terrible, terrible mistake.  It impacted what we could do for a new staff, the Benford issue and many other projects that could have used that money like baseball etc.

To think buying out Tony's contract did not have some direct tie-in to the Mac buyout disaster is naive.  Notice that Mac has not resurfaced and probably will not until the entire buyout is in his bank.  I wish we had a unlimited source of funding to tap into but we do not.

Not to derail, but all I read in this post is Rick V mistakes. That can't be glossed over and that can't be hidden. The mistakes are there plain as day. 

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20 minutes ago, Harry said:

Again, you have the right to your opinion.  However, people need to stop glossing over the fact the Mac buyout hampers a lot of what we can do right now.  It lessens our available options.  We have to stop ignoring the fact that Mac's $2.4 MILLION dollar buyout is the biggest personnel expenditure in the history of the UNT system.  If you want to focus in on mistakes, let's rewind to after the bowl win in 2014 when we redid the Mac deal.  I raise my hand guilty as charged thinking that was the right thing to do at the time.  We were coming off of the high water mark for me as a fan winning a bowl game on New Years day.  We were drunk with optimism.  I speak for myself and I believe the majority... there will be those who claim they were against it but their numbers were few.   In hindsight, it was a terrible, terrible mistake.  It impacted what we could do for a new staff, the Benford issue and many other projects that could have used that money like baseball etc.

To think buying out Tony's contract did not have some direct tie-in to the Mac buyout disaster is naive.  Notice that Mac has not resurfaced and probably will not until the entire buyout is in his bank.  I wish we had a unlimited source of funding to tap into but we do not.

But Fly told us the money was there if Benford underperformed.  And buying out the last year of Benford's contract wasn't done to protect the Hattiesburg Hustler. It had nothing to do with money. If UNT can't afford $375k basketball buy out, they need to drop down to D2. That's right, even an FCS can make that payment. 

The Hustler is betting that Benford will win big in year 5 (he won't) in order to save what the Hustler thinks is some kind of legacy. 

His legacy is losing, and is written in stone. 

Edited by UNT90
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