Really?!!?!?!!!!

[UNTLifer]

17 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

I never thought about this before I answered this in a post earlier, but the ROI for the UNT 17 may very well be measured by its "entertainment" value than winning. The ROI may be in getting recognized for building facilities and for funding projects, rather than demanding wins.

Otherwise, there's no way RV keeps his job if winning mattered the most to these people. They are too successful in their business ventures to think they would accept anything less than what they want--in this case, winning must not be the important thing, it must be the entertainment of owning this thing as their own that matters the most.

This is just so very North Texas...

The idiocy of this post is just what Harry stated.  These people are not leaving if RV leaves.  Their contribution level still buys them the perks that they deserve for the amount of money they give, happens at every university across the land.  They will still get their name on buildings, if they are the major contributor for that project, but to assume that is all they want is ridiculous.  These people, considered winners in our society, don't want their name associated with a losing venture.  Their egos don't/won't allow that to occur.  I know Ernie Kuehne, not well but through others, and if you think he is accepting of losing or being mediocre then you are way off base.

[untjim1995]

9 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

The idiocy of this post is just what Harry stated.  These people are not leaving if RV leaves.  Their contribution level still buys them the perks that they deserve for the amount of money they give, happens at every university across the land.  They will still get their name on buildings, if they are the major contributor for that project, but to assume that is all they want is ridiculous.  These people, considered winners in our society, don't want their name associated with a losing venture.  Their egos don't/won't allow that to occur.  I know Ernie Kuehne, not well but through others, and if you think he is accepting of losing or being mediocre then you are way off base.

Oh? Because I have read nothing on here that said Ernie wants Benford to be gone after 4 f'ing years of just putrid basketball in front of about 1500 people...for that matter, nothing else has been said publicly about Tony Benford still being our coach in the last year of a five year contract.

Idiocy is accepting a viewpoint that believes that winning matters here to the powers that be. History is on my side here, UNTLifer...

[Aldo]

6 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

Oh? Because I have read nothing on here that said Ernie wants Benford to be gone after 4 f'ing years of just putrid basketball in front of about 1500 people..

Maybe after shelling out over 3 million in buyouts, they told RV "enough".

I don't think RV will be here when his contract is up, and I feel that having to ask someone to buy out HIS contract is insult to injury.

[UNT Mean Green]

38 minutes ago, Aldo said:

Maybe after shelling out over 3 million in buyouts, they told RV "enough".

I don't think RV will be here when his contract is up, and I feel that having to ask someone to buy out HIS contract is insult to injury.

This is likely the case. Anyone on here who wants to criticize the proclaimed "17" because of their accepting / endorsing the hires and track record are simply missing the boat. As far as I know, the only athletics hire that has involved the "17", was Littrell where 3 of the "17" were highly involved in the decision and the hiring process with and including the President and Chairman of the Board. This is customary practice at universities across the country. I will certainly not mention any of those names, but they are 3 highly influential business leaders who have a keen eye for identifying and hiring the best talent; and know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to college athletics.

[UNTLifer]

51 minutes ago, Aldo said:

Maybe after shelling out over 3 million in buyouts, they told RV "enough".

I don't think RV will be here when his contract is up, and I feel that having to ask someone to buy out HIS contract is insult to injury.

We talk about Benford coaching in the final year of his contract without an extension.  Seems RV is in the last year of his deal without the security of an extension, and if "The 17" really loved him so much, this would already have been taken care of.  Looks to me like it is a win or else year for more than Benford.

[UNTFan23]

57 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

Oh? Because I have read nothing on here that said Ernie wants Benford to be gone after 4 f'ing years of just putrid basketball in front of about 1500 people...for that matter, nothing else has been said publicly about Tony Benford still being our coach in the last year of a five year contract.

Idiocy is accepting a viewpoint that believes that winning matters here to the powers that be. History is on my side here, UNTLifer...

And on the same note there has really been nothing said that Ernie wants to keep Benford around for a 5th year either.  He doesn't go running to an internet message board to proclaim his position regarding all things UNT so anything said about him (or any of the "17") is at best hearsay and at worst pure bulls**t speculation unless one of them comes on here and speaks for themself.

[MeanGreenTexan]

4 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

And on the same note there has really been nothing said that Ernie wants to keep Benford around for a 5th year either.  He doesn't go running to an internet message board to proclaim his position regarding all things UNT so anything said about him (or any of the "17") is at best hearsay and at worst pure bulls**t speculation unless one of them comes on here and speaks for themself.

... which they have.  And he has never said he wants to extend Benford either.

 

17 minutes ago, UNT Mean Green said:

This is likely the case. Anyone on here who wants to criticize the proclaimed "17" because of their accepting / endorsing the hires and track record are simply missing the boat. As far as I know, the only athletics hire that has involved the "17", was Littrell where 3 of the "17" were highly involved in the decision and the hiring process with and including the President and Chairman of the Board. This is customary practice at universities across the country. I will certainly not mention any of those names, but they are 3 highly influential business leaders who have a keen eye for identifying and hiring the best talent; and know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to college athletics.

It appears you're counting the same person twice.

[untjim1995]

Just a reminder--in the last five years, with brand new facilities and sitting in the middle of the one of the most talent-laden areas in the country.

Football: 5-7, 4-8, 9-4, 4-8, 1-11--total of 23-38

Mens Hoops: 18-14, 12-20, 16-16, 14-17, 12-20--total of 72-87

Womens Hoops: 15-16, 11-19, 12-18, 5-24, 11-19, total of 54-86

 

Average Attendance, per meangreensports.com, for last season for each:

Football--13k

Mens Hoops--2k

Womens Hoops--798

 

The AD is in his 15th year on the job. Every one of the coaches that have led us to these records are his hires over the last five years. And he keeps his job. So you can say that those 17 people care about building a legacy here thru their contributions by building facilities, helping to buyout bad contracts that the AD made (Petersen, McCarney), and to help with funding other projects. But there is absolutely no proof--at all--that they care about winning. If they did, their AD would be gone.

 

[UNTFan23]

2 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

The AD is in his 15th year on the job. Every one of the coaches that have led us to these records are his hires over the last five years. And he keeps his job. So you can say that those 17 people care about building a legacy here thru their contributions by building facilities, helping to buyout bad contracts that the AD made (Petersen, McCarney), and to help with funding other projects. But there is absolutely no proof--at all--that they care about winning. If they did, their AD would be gone.

 

Contributing to buy out contracts for coaches who aren't winning, including the huge amount needed for McCarney's contract, at least on the surface shows maybe they care just a little. If they didn't care -- at all -- we'd still have the him coaching the football team.

[UNT Mean Green]

56 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

... which they have.  And he has never said he wants to extend Benford either.

 

It appears you're counting the same person twice.

Yes, the same person was counted in the count of 3 who were deeply involved with the Littrell hire.

[MeanGreenTexan]

31 minutes ago, UNT Mean Green said:

Yes, the same person was counted in the count of 3 who were deeply involved with the Littrell hire.

I don't think people fully understand how fortunate UNT Athletics is to have a chairman of the BOR (since 2013) who also happens to be a 7-figure donor.

He's no dummy, and he may really like RV, but I highly doubt any sane millionaire is going to torpedo his Alma Mater's athletics department while he sits in a place of power and is funneling millions of dollars into it.  

[UNT90]

1 hour ago, untjim1995 said:

Just a reminder--in the last five years, with brand new facilities and sitting in the middle of the one of the most talent-laden areas in the country.

Football: 5-7, 4-8, 9-4, 4-8, 1-11--total of 23-38

Mens Hoops: 18-14, 12-20, 16-16, 14-17, 12-20--total of 72-87

Womens Hoops: 15-16, 11-19, 12-18, 5-24, 11-19, total of 54-86

 

Average Attendance, per meangreensports.com, for last season for each:

Football--13k

Mens Hoops--2k

Womens Hoops--798

 

The AD is in his 15th year on the job. Every one of the coaches that have led us to these records are his hires over the last five years. And he keeps his job. So you can say that those 17 people care about building a legacy here thru their contributions by building facilities, helping to buyout bad contracts that the AD made (Petersen, McCarney), and to help with funding other projects. But there is absolutely no proof--at all--that they care about winning. If they did, their AD would be gone.

 

Dead on. And make no mistake, Rick Villarreal IS their AD.

[UNT Mean Green]

10 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I don't think people fully understand how fortunate UNT Athletics is to have a chairman of the BOR (since 2013) who also happens to be a 7-figure donor.

He's no dummy, and he may really like RV, but I highly doubt any sane millionaire is going to torpedo his Alma Mater's athletics department while he sits in a place of power and is funneling millions of dollars into it.  

Exactly. The university is very fortunate to have a leader like Ryan, who is also financially vested in a number of avenues in and around North Texas. He, along with these 2 others are very intelligent people, who - while they may be personal friends with RV and other officers at the university - have a great desire to capitalize on all of this university's potential and start performing on the fields and courts of play like we "should be".

It's fair for people to be skeptical of any hire by the athletic department given the track record; but it's a fact that, in the case of Littrell - this hire was selected from the top (Chairman of BoR, President...) down involving intelligent people, and people who frankly, we as fans should be grateful were involved in this process.

[UNT90]

13 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I don't think people fully understand how fortunate UNT Athletics is to have a chairman of the BOR (since 2013) who also happens to be a 7-figure donor.

He's no dummy, and he may really like RV, but I highly doubt any sane millionaire is going to torpedo his Alma Mater's athletics department while he sits in a place of power and is funneling millions of dollars into it.  

Then why has he done so? UNT is the worst athletic program in CUSA and one of, if not THE, worst in America.

How does someone so smart and rich not only allow this to happen, but also apply zero consequences to the department head overseeing this massive failure? 

Personal manipulation is a powerful tool.

[MeanGreenTexan]

1 minute ago, UNT90 said:

Then why has he done so? UNT is the worst athletic program in CUSA and one of, if not THE, worst in America.

How does someone so smart and rich not only allow this to happen, but also apply zero consequences to the department head overseeing this massive failure? 

Personal manipulation is a powerful tool.

He's been in his position since 2013.   He made a poor miscalculation by trusting RV to extend McCarney after the bowl win, while no-doubt being consumed with Jackson's pet projects in Dallas.  Many people were on board with that extension at the time.   After that catastrophe, it appears he has learned, and it appears he's letting this thing ride out (as painful as that may be in the meantime).  

If there were enough money to rid McCarney & Peterson while letting Benford continue to bring in nice players, yet suck...  
Or, rid Benford & Peterson while letting McCarney do (or not do) whatever it was he was doing (or not doing) and suck...

Which would you chose?  Because that's what it looks like we were faced with.

[UNTLifer]

I agree.  They ponied up the cash to buy out McCarney.  BTW, how does anyone deserve these huge payoffs to basically go away for doing a terrible job anyway?  Do they also have the cash to buy out Benford and RV's contracts?   I doubt it, so they will ride them out this year and then replace them.

[UNTFan23]

10 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

I agree.  They ponied up the cash to buy out McCarney.  BTW, how does anyone deserve these huge payoffs to basically go away for doing a terrible job anyway?  Do they also have the cash to buy out Benford and RV's contracts?   I doubt it, so they will ride them out this year and then replace them.

The coach is under contract. I guess you could attempt to take them to court and try and argue your way out of the contract but just because the team they are coaching isn't winning doesn't qualify as "for cause" to fire someone. I believe the risk you'd run is if you lose, your costs increase dramatically as you'd be on the hook for the coach's salary plus court costs. The easy way out that avoids litigation is to just have both sides agree to a buyout.

If coaches were hired under "at will" employment things might be different.

[UNT90]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

He's been in his position since 2013.   He made a poor miscalculation by trusting RV to extend McCarney after the bowl win, while no-doubt being consumed with Jackson's pet projects in Dallas.  Many people were on board with that extension at the time.   After that catastrophe, it appears he has learned, and it appears he's letting this thing ride out (as painful as that may be in the meantime).  

If there were enough money to rid McCarney & Peterson while letting Benford continue to bring in nice players, yet suck...  
Or, rid Benford & Peterson while letting McCarney do (or not do) whatever it was he was doing (or not doing) and suck...

Which would you chose?  Because that's what it looks like we were faced with.

The first firing should be Rick Villarreal. Let the new AD fix the mess Villarreal created. 

Why wasn't that even listed as an option above? 

Jesus, is there ever back assward thinking in this fan base.

[MeanGreenTexan]

3 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

The first firing should be Rick Villarreal. Let the new AD fix the mess Villarreal created. 

Why wasn't that even listed as an option above? 

Jesus, is there ever back assward thinking in this fan base.

Firing Rick Villareal would also require buying him out as well.   So I guess maybe you can throw him into the option to buy out Benford & Peterson (and now RV).   If we cannot afford to buy out McCarney, Peterson AND Benford, how could we afford to fire all 4?
You still have to buy out McCarney at some point, but not before he pulverizes your football program further into the ground for at least another year, if not longer while coaching players who've quit on him.  And what Athletic Director worth any salt is going to take on that kind of headache right out of the gate (a terrible coach with no money available to buy him out and start over)?
 

The compound fracture is a terrible, terrible injury.  The bone is the most important repair for sure, but you need to stop the bleeding & prevent infection first before you can mend the bone.

[Army of Dad]

2 hours ago, UNT Mean Green said:

Exactly. The university is very fortunate to have a leader like Ryan, who is also financially vested in a number of avenues in and around North Texas. He, along with these 2 others are very intelligent people, who - while they may be personal friends with RV and other officers at the university - have a great desire to capitalize on all of this university's potential and start performing on the fields and courts of play like we "should be".

It's fair for people to be skeptical of any hire by the athletic department given the track record; but it's a fact that, in the case of Littrell - this hire was selected from the top (Chairman of BoR, President...) down involving intelligent people, and people who frankly, we as fans should be grateful were involved in this process.

Oh, how is that a fact? Have any of them come out publicly on the record and say it was their hire and not RV?

Just applying your own standard from earlier in the thread...

ETA: (Or not, my apologies I seem to have mixed up your post with '23).

Edited April 19, 2016 by Army of Dad

[UNT90]

22 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Firing Rick Villareal would also require buying him out as well.   So I guess maybe you can throw him into the option to buy out Benford & Peterson (and now RV).   If we cannot afford to buy out McCarney, Peterson AND Benford, how could we afford to fire all 4?
You still have to buy out McCarney at some point, but not before he pulverizes your football program further into the ground for at least another year, if not longer while coaching players who've quit on him.  And what Athletic Director worth any salt is going to take on that kind of headache right out of the gate (a terrible coach with no money available to buy him out and start over)?
 

The compound fracture is a terrible, terrible injury.  The bone is the most important repair for sure, but you need to stop the bleeding & prevent infection first before you can mend the bone.

Firing Rick Villarreal is priority one. Maybe money comes back to the program with a new AD. Maybe he raises money the Hattiesburg Hustler can't and is able to fire Benford. 

RV should have been the person fired after Portland St, but he blamed McCarney to save his paycheck. That is the person that should have been fired that gray gray evening.

But there he sits, still collecting a check while UNT is the same old UNT.

[Rudy]

Can't we just give RV his very own Jimmy John's franchise as a buyout?

[UNTLifer]

2 hours ago, UNT90 said:

Firing Rick Villarreal is priority one. Maybe money comes back to the program with a new AD. Maybe he raises money the Hattiesburg Hustler can't and is able to fire Benford. 

RV should have been the person fired after Portland St, but he blamed McCarney to save his paycheck. That is the person that should have been fired that gray gray evening.

But there he sits, still collecting a check while UNT is the same old UNT.

And how would this have solved the problem McCarney had become and the team quitting on him?

[UNT90]

28 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

And how would this have solved the problem McCarney had become and the team quitting on him?

Was that problem solved? You have no idea. 

What it would have done is kept McCarney around to the end of the year until the new AD could get the money for his buyout, assuming those donors you say love UNT so much took their money and went home.

Instead we have another RV hire at head coach, RV protecting his own job by keeping Benford around for another year, and an overall program still led by an incompetent AD who continues to damage the product of the department, 

But, ya, firing Mac solved everything...

[MeanGreenTexan]

2 hours ago, UNT90 said:

Was that problem solved? You have no idea. 

What it would have done is kept McCarney around to the end of the year until the new AD could get the money for his buyout, assuming those donors you say love UNT so much took their money and went home.

Instead we have another RV hire at head coach, RV protecting his own job by keeping Benford around for another year, and an overall program still led by an incompetent AD who continues to damage the product of the department, 

But, ya, firing Mac solved everything...

No one said (or is saying) that it fixed "everything".  But the effort the team put forth the very next week against the conference champs is proof enough that it addressed the problem of the team quitting.  

Your tunnel vision is blurring your ability to compartmentalize the individual arguments.