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UT Editorial against UNT Law School


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#1 Harry

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 11:42 PM

Quote

When you find yourself in a hole, you quit digging. When a public university is about to spend millions on an undertaking that won’t benefit Texans, it’s time for the metaphorical shovel to be put aside.

In this case, the hole belongs to the University of North Texas who for the last three years has been working to found a new law school at their satellite campus in downtown Dallas. The proposed school, which would be the 10th law school in the state, announced last week that U.S. District Court Judge Royal Furgeson could be serving as its first dean.

The school’s opening has already been significantly delayed. The inaugural class was originally slated to begin in the fall of 2011, but that date was postponed until fall 2012. That opening has since been pushed back another year to fall 2013. Given the current state of the legal market, coupled with cuts to funding for higher education, the school’s opening should continue to be delayed — if not scrapped altogether.

Read More: http://www.dailytexa...timely-endeavor
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#2 Eagle-96

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 08:51 AM

View PostHarry, on 03 February 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:


Dear UT,

North Texas has not cared about your opinions for decades. We are not about to start now. If UTA wants to start a new program then you have a say regarding your bloated and overextended system. Until Hell freezes over, pigs fly, Carson Daily wins an Oscar and UNT becomes part of your system mind your own business.

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#3 Harry

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 08:56 AM

View PostEagle-96, on 04 February 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

Dear UT,

North Texas has not cared about your opinions for decades. We are not about to start now. If UTA wants to start a new program then you have a say regarding your bloated and overextended system. Until Hell freezes over, pigs fly, Carson Daily wins an Oscar and UNT becomes part of your system mind your own business.

Sincerely,
The Awakening Giant
Ditto - they should mind their own damn business!
"In that first game we played like we did against. A lot of huff and puff but little to show for it." jessyj



#4 chomp

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 12:48 PM

As much as I love UNT, this article made some very good points. It seems really hard to argue that there is not enough capacity already to train the number of lawyers needed by Texas, particularly given the brutal job market for new law school grads these days. Given the scarcity of resources going to education in Texas in the first place, it seems like there are a lot of other areas where these resources could be better spent than a new law school. I truly do not see how this law school benefits UNT-Denton one iota, which is the only form of UNT I care about. If the law school was in Denton, it could establish links with the outstanding programs that UNT already has in areas like public administration, political science, and business. You see this happen across many universities with their law schools. But the law school won't be in Denton and won't be part of UNT-Denton, so that won't happen. As such, all I can see is a drain on resources that could go to UNT, an unnecessary taxpayer expense, and yet another example of Lee Jackson's general lack of interest and concern for the UNT flagship.

Edited by chomp, 04 February 2012 - 12:49 PM.


#5 UNTX

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:25 PM

View Postchomp, on 04 February 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

As much as I love UNT, this article made some very good points. It seems really hard to argue that there is not enough capacity already to train the number of lawyers needed by Texas, particularly given the brutal job market for new law school grads these days. Given the scarcity of resources going to education in Texas in the first place, it seems like there are a lot of other areas where these resources could be better spent than a new law school. I truly do not see how this law school benefits UNT-Denton one iota, which is the only form of UNT I care about. If the law school was in Denton, it could establish links with the outstanding programs that UNT already has in areas like public administration, political science, and business. You see this happen across many universities with their law schools. But the law school won't be in Denton and won't be part of UNT-Denton, so that won't happen. As such, all I can see is a drain on resources that could go to UNT, an unnecessary taxpayer expense, and yet another example of Lee Jackson's general lack of interest and concern for the UNT flagship.


Perfectly stated. Amen.

#6 Harry

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:57 PM

View Postchomp, on 04 February 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

As much as I love UNT, this article made some very good points. It seems really hard to argue that there is not enough capacity already to train the number of lawyers needed by Texas, particularly given the brutal job market for new law school grads these days. Given the scarcity of resources going to education in Texas in the first place, it seems like there are a lot of other areas where these resources could be better spent than a new law school. I truly do not see how this law school benefits UNT-Denton one iota, which is the only form of UNT I care about. If the law school was in Denton, it could establish links with the outstanding programs that UNT already has in areas like public administration, political science, and business. You see this happen across many universities with their law schools. But the law school won't be in Denton and won't be part of UNT-Denton, so that won't happen. As such, all I can see is a drain on resources that could go to UNT, an unnecessary taxpayer expense, and yet another example of Lee Jackson's general lack of interest and concern for the UNT flagship.
I respect your opinion but I disagree. For far too long we've been that school out in Denton and allowed others to claim Dallas and more importantly the corporate donors to remain detached. We all know that UNT represents a LOT more of the Dallas community than that school by La Madeline does and ever will. The Law school gives us a foothold in the center of Dallas and immediately connects us with a large legal community. I can tell you right now there is talk among the partners and associates at many of the major firms about teaching or getting involved with the UNT Law School...A big component of that is convenience/location. It will be Dallas' only public law school (besides SMU and Texas Weslyan) and that's important because the only two nearby are private and much more expensive.

If you look at the major universities in the state, they have flagship locations (Austin, Houston, Lubbock etc) but they also have satellites. This paranoia that developing a Dallas based school will devalue the flagship or limit resources shouldn't prevent us from trying to spread our wings and expand our footprint deeper into one of the biggest cities in the United States.

I will agree with this, there are lots of lawyers and that troubles me in some respects. I also think a law degree has adapted to appeal to more than just those practicing law, I know talent agents with law degrees, businessmen, real estate developers...the list goes on. The fact is there are still in this bad economy a lot of people getting turned down to go to SMU and don't want to drive to Fort Worth. I think opponents like to point out that there are two many lawyers to serve their own selfish purposes. I don't see them offering to shut down their law schools to deal with this catastrophe. And in terms of SMU and Texas Wesleyan - they are both private school charging private school tuition. I can guarantee you that they aren't excited about another law school coming in and offering a law degree at a lower cost...it's called competition and to me that's a good thing for the marketplace.

Are there risks - absolutely and in my opinion they are risks worth taking. The biggest risk that it poses is spreading ourselves too thin. It's a tough line that you walk. Clearly the safer route is to stay focused on Denton alone and hope that we can develop a typically unsupportive community into bigger and better things. Or we could look at other markets that open up new doors and opportunities. I need to remind people that we didn't just draw the short straw to get the UNT Dallas project...it was a hotly contested battle and there were other systems who were very interested in having the opportunity to put the first state college in Dallas city limits..

The battle for Tier I status is going on and the steps Jackson makes are all built around that goal. I am frankly still surprised that the law school was able to get through the political power brokers who represent cities where the other closest state law school are located, namely Austin and Lubbock. I think it was a major victory for us and am surprised there are so many here that view it as a negative.
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#7 97and03

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 09:28 PM

Another thing to keep in mind is that we would have likely never gotten approval for funding for a law school in Denton. I think locating it in Dallas was the only way.

Edited by 97and03, 06 February 2012 - 10:31 PM.

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#8 Eastwood Eagle

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 11:40 PM

I will give my two cents from a different perspective. I am in my last semester at UNT and I am in the process of applying to law schools. I knew this is what I wanted to do before I started at UNT my freshman year. That being said I have done a ton of research on law schools, talked to numerous professors and I have done just about everything a student could to do prepare himself for law school.

My opinion is split. I love the idea that one UNT will have a law school that can hopefully be on par with Texas Tech's. I have no doubt that after a few years it will be ahead of Texas Wesylean.

However, I agree with the article. This is not the time for UNT to start a law school. Job opportunities are bleak right now for future attorneys. And producing around 400 a year to an already bad market would hurt not only UNT Law students, but the reputation of the school.

The article is right. If you are not going to a top tier school (UT, SMU, UH, or Baylor) then you really should not go to law school (unless you are guaranteed to graduate debt free). You will be depressingly in debt and if you are LUCKY to find a job graduating from a Tier 3 or Tier 4 school then you will be making a little more than a school teacher paying off a $80,000 loan. Potentially UNT Law students will be bottom of the barrel to start off.

I'm not trying to be negative on UNT, obviously I'm huge supporter of my school (why else would I be on this forum) but I do not see how this can help ANYONE (except more money for UNT-Dallas).


I know it would not be practical to start a program when employment prospects getting better, but I really wish this school would start later in the future.

#9 Eastwood Eagle

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 11:51 PM

One more note, this is quoted from the website:

"Applicants with at least a 150 LSAT and at least a 3.0 UGPA especially are encouraged to apply"

I hope that the school makes acceptance rigorous. Schools like St. Mary's, Texas Wesylean and Texas Southern accept people with 2.XX GPA's and 14X LSAT scores. I think one way to easily surpass these Tier 4 schools and become a Tier 3 school like Texas Tech would be to set high GPA and LSAT floors.

Prospective students put a lot of stock in law school rankings and one way rankings are determined are through median GPA and LSAT. I personally would not apply to certain schools if their medians were too low (or too high). One way to get a good reputation from the get go would be to attract good potential students who don't think the school is a joke when they see the median LSAT is a 14X and median GPA is a 2.XX.

Edited by Eastwood Eagle, 08 February 2012 - 03:42 PM.





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