42 replies to this topic

[UNTLifer]

GrandGreen, on 02 February 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

I think the young men who committed to NT understand a lot more about were they stand in college football than you or I. Do you want to debate the 2008 recruiting class now that we have history to look at. My guess you thought they were an excellent class also.

Obviously, you disagree with my point of view: why not give me some valid rationale why I and all the recruiting services are wrong. Dismissing something as "crap" is not exactly strong debate. I have followed NT recruiting for a very long time, and know no matter who is signed; the majority is going to think the class is a step toward greatness. Don't give me a hundred examples of individual players who have busted or excelled counter to their rankings. Give me an example of a class that has excelled at NT, the only one I can think of since returning to the fb division; is the 2001 class I think, that contained 6 state one hundred picks. This year class contained one area 100 signee. You might want to actually look at other school's recruiting lists and see how they compare to NT. Take the emotion out and look at who they have signed versus NT. I have not looked lately but the only Texas schools in the same tier as NT are UTEP and UTSA. In the Belt which I don't think is as good a comparison because of the geographically differences; NT is a head of woeful ULM and perhaps the Muts. What are your opinions who else in Texas or the Belt do you think NT out recruited?

By the way I think you will have a very difficult time finding any posts of my that demean any athlete at NT. If you think collectively the team is not open to criticism than you might want to restrict your reading to the official site.

I think pointing out that Rivals Top 100 lists from various years contain as many or more busts than big time stars is a pretty valid point in discussing how inexact their rating system is set up. My point was about how the ratings are subjective and the real measure of the player is how they develop. Look at some of TCU's classes from the early to mid 2000's, not rated highly by the expert sites, but ended up getting them to a Rose Bowl in 2010. Jerry Hughes, one of their top defensive players was a two-star undersized DL coming out of high school and ended up an All-American.

What about our classes/players? I provided a list of "unheralded" recruits that ended up being pretty good players for us including Cobbs, Quinn, Hurd, Fitzgerald, etc...

The "crap" I refer to are the negative comments about these young men that have just committed to play for us. I'm sure they were excited, found this site like one parent of a signee did, and then read where "we got it handed to us" in recruiting this year, etc... Seems ridiculous to me to criticize a class that hasn't set foot on campus yet.

Since you asked about our 2008 class, I noticed the following as three stars that were pursued and offered by some pretty big programs prior to ending up at North Texas. Here they are:

Dawaylon Cook: offers from Utah, West Virginia and TCU. Decommitted from TCU to sign with us. Contributed, but not a star, left the program early.
Riley Dodge: offers from Missouri, SMU, Texas, Rice and Tulsa. Signed with us due to TD. Injured most of his career and left once TD was fired.
Justin Edwards: offers from Mississippi and NMSU. I don't think he was ever eligible to play.
Troy Franklin: offers from Colorado State and Tulsa. Never contributed.
James Hamilton: offers from Kentucky, ULaLa, Rice, SMU, Tulsa, UTEP and Washington State. Solid contributer but never a starter.
Kylee Hill, Alonzo Horton and Nate Jenkins were all 3-star JUCO and either didn't get on campus or never contributed.

Dunbar, AK, Hill, Phillips and Shorter, for instance were all 2-star recruits that I would say exceeded the ratings, especially Dunbar, and have also shown what a good coaching staff can do for their development.

I would say the 08' class is a perfect example as to why it is ridiculous to respond with such negativety towards a class or respond positively without letting them develop.

[Daddy Dumpsalot]

glick1980, on 02 February 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

6'6" is the biggest guy, which is pretty big.

So he is actually probably closer to 6'4".

[Roadruner]

Harry, on 02 February 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

Bingo!

Lets see Joe Green – not highly recruited – only about 6-1, 195 his freshman year – then grew a little and turned out be a pretty good player

I think our coach knows what he is doing and that you all are full of hot air and other such stuff.

[risinggreen]

Daddy Dumpsalot, on 03 February 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

So he is actually probably closer to 6'4".

Or maybe he's actually probably closer to 6'8"? Being too tall is not always too good of a thing in this sport.

[SilverEagle]

Roadruner, on 03 February 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Lets see Joe Green – not highly recruited – only about 6-1, 195 his freshman year – then grew a little and turned out be a pretty good player

I think our coach knows what he is doing and that you all are full of hot air and other such stuff.

I think that Joe Greene was much bigger than that his freshman year. He wasn't highly recruited in Texas because there were no black football players on SWC teams until 67 or 68. He might have been recruited by Grambling or a big 10 school.

You may be thinking of Cedric Hardeman (nickname "Nasty" #80 on your program). He arrived at North Texas about the size that you quoted (and playing safety/RB), and left North Texas (as a top draft choice) at 6'4" X 240....and playing DE.

Edited by SilverEagle, 04 February 2012 - 04:14 AM.

[Side Show Joe]

SilverEagle, on 03 February 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

I think that Joe Greene was much bigger than that his freshman year. He wasn't highly recruited in Texas because there were no black football players on SWC teams until 67 or 68. He might have been recruited by Grambling or a big 10 school.

You may be thinking of Cedric Hardeman (nickname "Nasty" #88 on your program). He arrived at North Texas about the size that you quoted (and playing safety/RB), and left North Texas (as a top draft choice) at 6'4" X 240....and playing DE.

Hardeman was a beast. I wish he got more credit for being one of the greatest players in our school's history. He made some good movies too...

[SilverEagle]

Side Show Joe, on 03 February 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

Hardeman was a beast. I wish he got more credit for being one of the greatest players in our school's history. He made some good movies too...

College years
Hardman played college football at North Texas State University, (renamed the University of North Texas in 1988). Hardman was an All-Missouri Valley Conference football defensive lineman. In a historic manner, Hardman recorded 38 sacks in his senior season at North Texas State[1] and represented North Texas State in the Blue-Gray and Senior Bowl all-star games in 1970. Cedrick started playing college football as a defensive back, then moved to linebacker in his sophomore season. His final two college years were spent playing defensive end. Hardman was drafted with the ninth overall selection in the first round of the 1970 NFL Draft by the San Francisco 49ers.[2]

NFL career
Hardman is the current all-time sack leader for the San Francisco 49ers franchise, recording 120 sacks between 1970 and 1979 and he had 14½ with the Raiders in 1980 and 81 (9½ in 1980).[3] Hardman was a two-time Pro Bowler in 1971 and 1975[4] and he was a member of the Oakland Raiders Super Bowl XV winning team.[5]



What is not mentioned in the segment about his pro career was that he was one of the first defensive ends to be a "passing-down-only" player. That was his main role with Oakland and it extended his career three or four years. And it ended up getting him a Super Bowl ring.

Here he is his senior year.

http://texashistory..../245/?q=hardman

bottom of page

http://texashistory..../262/?q=hardman

Here he is in a team picture sitting next to Richard Gill (who's number 55 was retired).

http://texashistory..../260/?q=hardman

Edited by SilverEagle, 04 February 2012 - 04:21 AM.

[pastorgrant]

SilverEagle, on 04 February 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

College years
Hardman played college football at North Texas State University, (renamed the University of North Texas in 1988). Hardman was an All-Missouri Valley Conference football defensive lineman. In a historic manner, Hardman recorded 38 sacks in his senior season at North Texas State[1] and represented North Texas State in the Blue-Gray and Senior Bowl all-star games in 1970. Cedrick started playing college football as a defensive back, then moved to linebacker in his sophomore season. His final two college years were spent playing defensive end. Hardman was drafted with the ninth overall selection in the first round of the 1970 NFL Draft by the San Francisco 49ers.[2]

NFL career
Hardman is the current all-time sack leader for the San Francisco 49ers franchise, recording 120 sacks between 1970 and 1979 and he had 14½ with the Raiders in 1980 and 81 (9½ in 1980).[3] Hardman was a two-time Pro Bowler in 1971 and 1975[4] and he was a member of the Oakland Raiders Super Bowl XV winning team.[5]



What is not mentioned in the segment about his pro career was that he was one of the first defensive ends to be a "passing-down-only" player. That was his main role with Oakland and it extended his career three or four years. And it ended up getting him a Super Bowl ring.

Here he is his senior year.

http://texashistory..../245/?q=hardman

bottom of page

http://texashistory..../262/?q=hardman

Here he is in a team picture sitting next to Richard Gill (who's number 55 was retired).

http://texashistory..../260/?q=hardman

Wow. Just, wow.

[SilverEagle]

pastorgrant, on 04 February 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

Wow. Just, wow.

Here's a little perspective on our often forgotten great player.

Anyone remember Charles Haley?

Charles Haley

In his 12 NFL seasons, Haley recorded 100.5 quarterback sacks,

Hardman is the current all-time sack leader for the San Francisco 49ers franchise, recording 120 sacks between 1970 and 1979 and he had 14½ with the Raiders in 1980 and 81 (9½ in 1980)

That means that his TOTAL sack count was 134.5


Haley might one day get into the NFL HOF.

I guess Hardman's mistake was not getting into numerous altercations with coaches and teammates during this NFL career.

[foutsrouts]

SilverEagle, on 04 February 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

College years
Hardman played college football at North Texas State University, (renamed the University of North Texas in 1988). Hardman was an All-Missouri Valley Conference football defensive lineman. In a historic manner, Hardman recorded 38 sacks in his senior season at North Texas State[1] and represented North Texas State in the Blue-Gray and Senior Bowl all-star games in 1970. Cedrick started playing college football as a defensive back, then moved to linebacker in his sophomore season. His final two college years were spent playing defensive end. Hardman was drafted with the ninth overall selection in the first round of the 1970 NFL Draft by the San Francisco 49ers.[2]

NFL career
Hardman is the current all-time sack leader for the San Francisco 49ers franchise, recording 120 sacks between 1970 and 1979 and he had 14½ with the Raiders in 1980 and 81 (9½ in 1980).[3] Hardman was a two-time Pro Bowler in 1971 and 1975[4] and he was a member of the Oakland Raiders Super Bowl XV winning team.[5]



What is not mentioned in the segment about his pro career was that he was one of the first defensive ends to be a "passing-down-only" player. That was his main role with Oakland and it extended his career three or four years. And it ended up getting him a Super Bowl ring.

Here he is his senior year.

http://texashistory..../245/?q=hardman

bottom of page

http://texashistory..../262/?q=hardman

Here he is in a team picture sitting next to Richard Gill (who's number 55 was retired).

http://texashistory..../260/?q=hardman

We sure had some special teams back then. Unfortunately, I think the Yucca has that SDSU score backwards. They were undefeated that year.
http://texashistory..../260/?q=hardman

[PlummMeanGreen]

SilverEagle, on 04 February 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Here's a little perspective on our often forgotten great player.

Anyone remember Charles Haley?

Charles Haley

In his 12 NFL seasons, Haley recorded 100.5 quarterback sacks,

Hardman is the current all-time sack leader for the San Francisco 49ers franchise, recording 120 sacks between 1970 and 1979 and he had 14½ with the Raiders in 1980 and 81 (9½ in 1980)

That means that his TOTAL sack count was 134.5


Haley might one day get into the NFL HOF.

I guess Hardman's mistake was not getting into numerous altercations with coaches and teammates during this NFL career.

Cedric Hardman will one day be in the NFL Hall of Fame. With numbers like you've researched and posted SilverE, who could build a case to keep him out for heaven's sake?

A word from Mean Joe Greene to the NFL/HOF selection committee probably would not hurt at all and I wonder if anyone from UNT has ever thought of that albeit all this from a different era in Mean Green Country?

Politics, follks, its about politics and North Texas has never mastered that fine art in my lifetime. Casepoint: Look at some school (s) getting into conferences they have not earned the right to be part of but are now members because they just had better and more effective politicians or school leaders pleading their case.

Politics? Fry could get a good schedule because of who he knew from his SMU years and all he had to do was just pick up a phone and make the call. We can all only dream if he would have had an Apogee Stadium during his tenure in Denton where we would be today on the NCAA totem pole but....that was yesterday and yesterday's gone.

GMG!

Edited by PlummMeanGreen, 04 February 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[All About UNT]

great actor too... "gimme a light"

[GrandGreen]

UNTLifer, on 03 February 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

I think pointing out that Rivals Top 100 lists from various years contain as many or more busts than big time stars is a pretty valid point in discussing how inexact their rating system is set up. My point was about how the ratings are subjective and the real measure of the player is how they develop. Look at some of TCU's classes from the early to mid 2000's, not rated highly by the expert sites, but ended up getting them to a Rose Bowl in 2010. Jerry Hughes, one of their top defensive players was a two-star undersized DL coming out of high school and ended up an All-American.

What about our classes/players? I provided a list of "unheralded" recruits that ended up being pretty good players for us including Cobbs, Quinn, Hurd, Fitzgerald, etc...

The "crap" I refer to are the negative comments about these young men that have just committed to play for us. I'm sure they were excited, found this site like one parent of a signee did, and then read where "we got it handed to us" in recruiting this year, etc... Seems ridiculous to me to criticize a class that hasn't set foot on campus yet.

Since you asked about our 2008 class, I noticed the following as three stars that were pursued and offered by some pretty big programs prior to ending up at North Texas. Here they are:

Dawaylon Cook: offers from Utah, West Virginia and TCU. De committed from TCU to sign with us. Contributed, but not a star, left the program early.
Riley Dodge: offers from Missouri, SMU, Texas, Rice and Tulsa. Signed with us due to TD. Injured most of his career and left once TD was fired.
Justin Edwards: offers from Mississippi and NMSU. I don't think he was ever eligible to play.
Troy Franklin: offers from Colorado State and Tulsa. Never contributed.
James Hamilton: offers from Kentucky, ULaLa, Rice, SMU, Tulsa, UTEP and Washington State. Solid contributer but never a starter.
Kylee Hill, Alonzo Horton and Nate Jenkins were all 3-star JUCO and either didn't get on campus or never contributed.

Dunbar, AK, Hill, Phillips and Shorter, for instance were all 2-star recruits that I would say exceeded the ratings, especially Dunbar, and have also shown what a good coaching staff can do for their development.

I would say the 08' class is a perfect example as to why it is ridiculous to respond with such negativety towards a class or respond positively without letting them develop.

Well, I guess you were just kidding in your private message about sparing the board this debate. I am not sure we have anything to discuss, you have labeled elements of my posts as "crap" and now "ridiculous" and now on numerous times have accused me of making negative comments about NT's recruits. However, you continue to argue a point no one is debating: the rating services are often wrong.

I have stated many times, ratings are about odds not absolutes. To attempt to make this even clearer, the possibility is greater that a higher rated player will contribute more than a lesser recruited athlete. This seems a foreign concept to you, but on the surface I doubt other than you, anyone disagrees. Did I not, in the very post you are responding to state save me the many examples of rating service misses, yet that seems to be your total response?

About the class of 2008, how did you rate it? I don't see any answer just more fodder for you to point out that rival's missed on a number of recruits. You are the one who stated that you can't tell how good a recruiting class is until after they have played a number of years. I guess you meant, you can't tell how an individual player does until he plays; limiting recruiting discussion to history is not exactly super stimulating. As a complete aside, if you don't think Riley Dodge contributed substantially to this program, than we have another issue.

Back to me insulting all those recruits and their families for stating something perfectly obvious to most. " NT got it handed to them in recruiting", there said it again, bring out the censures. I will go over this again, for your benefit because I imagine you are a lot more offended than most players or parents. NT lost most of recruiting battles when a player had other FB options. I did not say that the NT recruits were inferior or that NT or anybody else were not happy to have them sign. You are the one apparently reading that into "NT got it handed to them in recruiting". I than elaborated that although NT had not won many head to head recruiting battles, that I hope and believe that McCarney is a very good evaluator of talent and many of these players would be great contributors to the program and even cited TCU and Boise has being good example of programs that have had that kind of success which you seems to echo above.

I wonder about posters like you, who espouse basically that all recruiting talk is nonsense because we will not know until years down the road, yet feel free to hammer those that express any negative opinion based on the same lack of clairvoyance.