NTSU and the SWC

[Cooley]

Hadn't read or seen this before. According to Hayden Fry, SMU didn't have problems with NT joining the SWC. There was a concern about academics by most of the schools.

https://books.google.com/books?id=bANS-aNcpn4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=hayden+fry+a+high+porch+picnic&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjm58br_6PYAhVL4IMKHR27A8wQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=hayden fry a high porch picnic&f=false

[MeanGreen13]

I still think we would have gotten in if Fry stayed 2-3 more years... but not getting bowl games is tough on anyone!

[dmaxel]

Concerns about academics? I know we've improved quite a bit in that regard, but hypothetically speaking would we be good enough today if the SWC still existed?

Edited December 26, 2017 by dmaxel

[TreeFiddy]

Nice comment by Fry regarding the origin of the Mean Green.  

[SilverEagle]

9 hours ago, Cooley said:

Hadn't read or seen this before. According to Hayden Fry, SMU didn't have problems with NT joining the SWC. There was a concern about academics by most of the schools.

https://books.google.com/books?id=bANS-aNcpn4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=hayden+fry+a+high+porch+picnic&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjm58br_6PYAhVL4IMKHR27A8wQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=hayden fry a high porch picnic&f=false

I believe this is the book where he talks about resenting having to get involved in petty disputes between some coaches over locker space. Because he claimed that he had just raised 26 million to help build the Super Pit and he had better things to do than settle petty arguments. 

Well, I love what Hayden Fry did (and tried to do) for this school, but he had nothing to do with the funding for the Super Pit. Hayden Fry used to play very fast and loose with the truth. 

The concerns (lies) about academics at North Texas go back to when we achieved University status (1961), and filed a bill to change our name to THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS.  A very ugly chapter in North Texas history. You can read about it in the book The Story of North Texas, by Dr. James Rogers.

[ttunt1970]

Silver Eagle is correct Hayden would played a little loose with the facts sometimes and academic problem  was the way some felt about Cougar High

[greenjoe]

Looking back, I think leaving the MVC was a big mistake.  The notion was that the MVC was small time.  The only conference that got any attention then was the SouthWest Conference.  The Missouri Valley Conference, for the most part became the original CUSA.  Had we stayed in the MVC we probably would have been a charter member in CUSA.  Going independent was tough.  We could play anybody the first 4 to six weeks of the season.  As the season wore on it was hard to schedule games.  There was no "all conference recognition" for individual players and little chance for a bowl game.  Of course there were many fewer bowls then.  

The Hayden Fry lore is lots of fun.  But remember he was here less time that at Southern Meth or Iowa.  I appreciate what Fry did in regards to organizing the Mean Green Club and he certainly put stars in our eyes as to what could be.  But mostly, I believe, North Texas was a stopover on his way up the coaching ladder.  

Many will disagree.

GO MEAN GREEN

Edited December 25, 2017 by greenjoe

[GrandGreen]

37 minutes ago, greenjoe said:

Looking back, I think leaving the MVC was a big mistake.  The notion was that the MVC was small time.  The only conference that got any attention then was the SouthWest Conference.  The Missouri Valley Conference, for the most part became the original CUSA.  Had we stayed in the MVC we probably would have been a charter member in CUSA.  Going independent was tough.  We could play anybody the first 4 to six weeks of the season.  As the season wore on it was hard to schedule games.  There was no "all conference recognition" for individual players and little chance for a bowl game.  Of course there were many fewer bowls then.  

The Hayden Fry lore is lots of fun.  But remember he was here less time that at Southern Meth or Iowa.  I appreciate what Fry did in regards to organizing the Mean Green Club and he certainly put stars in our eyes as to what could be.  But mostly, I believe, North Texas was a stopover on his way up the coaching ladder.  

Mant will disagree.

GO MEAN GREEN

I see this sentiment often, and it just does not square with the facts.  Cincinnati, Louisville and Memphis had all left the MVC when NT departed.  The only team of football note that stayed was Tulsa.  Louisville, Memphis, and Cincinnati along with Georgia Tech joined the Metro conference in 1975.  I doubt NT was given an invitation, and doubt NT would have taken it if given.   

I do agree with your point about the difficulty of being an independent.  It is tough for football, but it much tougher on other sports.  It is interesting to note that Blakeley basketball success was based on recruits from the MVC era. 

As far as NT being a stopover for Fry, what school doesn't fit that description.  The answer by NT to Fry's success was to further cut the budget, no coach with a lot of options is going stay in an University who at that time was content to play division 1 ball on the margins. 

We will never know how close NT came to SWC membership, but I doubt academics had anything to do with it.   They let in Tech and UH over the same academic questions.   The problem was that NT couldn't muster the political clout of either of those schools. 

NT problems in that era had nothing to do with Fry.  The critical decision to replace Fry with Jerry Moore and further reduce the budget and then basically sleep through the reorganization process that religated NT to 1aa was what killed NT's athletics for decades.   

 

[UNTLifer]

12 hours ago, TreeFiddy said:

Nice comment by Fry regarding the origin of the Mean Green.  

As many have noted, he was never one to check facts and would take credit for a number of things. I heard he once stated that he wrote the forward for the Bible.

[VideoEagle]

2 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

As many have noted, he was never one to check facts and would take credit for a number of things. I heard he once stated that he wrote the forward for the Bible.

Hayden never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Hayden is a great coach and generally a great person. But he's very prone to exaggeration and often takes credit for thing he didn't do. 

[UNT86]

"Looking back, I think leaving the MVC was a big mistake.  The notion was that the MVC was small time.  The only conference that got any attention then was the SouthWest Conference.  The Missouri Valley Conference, for the most part became the original CUSA.  Had we stayed in the MVC we probably would have been a charter member in CUSA."

Well, we could have been a charter member... , or we could be Wichita State.  Do they even play football anymore?

 

[greenjoe]

An interesting point.  But I think Wichita dropping its football program may have had more to do with airplane crashes rather than conference affiliation. 

[VideoEagle]

4 hours ago, greenjoe said:

An interesting point.  But I think Wichita dropping its football program may have had more to do with airplane crashes rather than conference affiliation. 

Plane crash was in 1970 on the way to play Utah State. They didn't drop football till 1986 when the Missouri Valley Conference dropped football. I was just looking it up and at the time the MVC dropped football in 1985 they had a mix of two 1A programs - Wichita State and Tulsa and five 1AA programs. The only one of the seven programs that played football in CUSA was Tulsa. Tulsa wasn't a charter member. So, the chances that NT staying in the MoValley and thus becoming a part of the founding of CUSA weren't very good. 

Louisville went Independent in 75. Cincy in 69. Memphis in 73. Those three joined independents Southern Miss and Tulane to form CUSA football in 95 with Houston planning to join but playing out the last year of SWC football in 95. While it didn't work out for NT, going indy in the late 60 /early 70s seems to have been the route for most of the football playing founders of CUSA. The others all stayed football independents and managed to avoid the 1AA drop down by various means. 

[southsideguy]

Funny the SWC was worried about the academics of NTSU when corruption was the name of the game in the SWC.

[VideoEagle]

18 minutes ago, southsideguy said:

Funny the SWC was worried about the academics of NTSU when corruption was the name of the game in the SWC.

The SWC was not worried about academics at NTSU in the late 70s. Back then, NT and A&M were roughly equal academically. Neither would be called "elite." IIRC, we had slightly higher SAT scores but not every year. Back then, UT was still harder than most state schools to get into. But getting into A&M was not hard at all. 

I know A&M started working to upgrade their academics in the early/mid 80s. They started a program to try to get as many National Merit Scholars as possible from across the country to go to A&M. That's how a friend of mine ended up coming to Texas from Detroit - the Aggies offered him a full ride with room and board along with any other NMS who would come. With a higher class of students, A&M found it easier to get better faculty to come without having to get into a bidding war. All of that helped them start raising their admission standards as well. 

[wardly]

I was a freshman at North Texas State in 1961. At that point in time it was a "yall come " commuter school that certainly was not on the same level as A&M, but probably a step ahead of Arlington State.

[DeepGreen]

25 minutes ago, wardly said:

I was a freshman at North Texas State in 1961. At that point in time it was a "yall come " commuter school that certainly was not on the same level as A&M, but probably a step ahead of Arlington State.

At that time A & M's Kyle Field had a capacity of 40,000 + I believe.

Edited December 27, 2017 by DeepGreen

[PlummMeanGreen]

On 12/25/2017 at 9:11 PM, UNT86 said:

"Looking back, I think leaving the MVC was a big mistake.  The notion was that the MVC was small time.  The only conference that got any attention then was the SouthWest Conference.  The Missouri Valley Conference, for the most part became the original CUSA.  Had we stayed in the MVC we probably would have been a charter member in CUSA."

Well, we could have been a charter member... , or we could be Wichita State.  Do they even play football anymore?

 

I think Fry was moreso looking at the UH model of going Independent rather than copycatting anything happening with the outgoing members of the Missouri Valley Conference.  That group from the Mo' Valley had good basketball, but would not come close to anything the Coogs did in football & basketball after they left the MVC in 1960.

The 60's & 70's were 2 good decades for Cougar football & basketball & as a kid  in that part of Texas UH was the college athletic program I  followed in the 60's.   

Still I think Fry had in mind building something similar to the Cougars which had DKR & UT making noises about sponsoring UH for SWC membership as early as 1968.  *Fry's 1'st season coaching the Mean Green was in 1973.  Although UH had been voted into the SWC in 1970 the Coogs would not be eligible to play for a football championship until 1976.  Many frustrated  UH fans could not believe why  such a long wait. 

Indy was a tough route alright but was never mean't to be a permanent home for UH athletics as I don't think it would have been a permanent athletic home for NTSU had Fry stayed. 

 Back in the 60's UH AD Harry Fouke had a plan & he worked his plan all the way to SWC membership (albeit the SWC would implode in due time).  UNT's plan was interrupted by Fry leaving for the Big 10 & then UNT waving the white flag in 1982  & going down a level to NCAA 1-AA  (which for all practical purposes was our only choice if we were to keep football). Some of you will remember the hastily called meeting that Bill Vogel called many of us at out offices to attend;  that is the meeting he  put together for Dr. Hurley & his staff. It was an unusual meeting to say the least.  

Yes, Fry could exaggerate & spin a tall Texas tale with the best of them alright.  You kind of knew when to laugh when he spat those off knowing full well they were quite fictional. 

The most amazing thing Fry did in Denton IMHO was recruit some pretty good D1 talent with the worse on-campus athletic facilities in the state of Texas.  He knew how to close the deal much like many of us are seeing glimpses that our present staff has begun to do the same. 

GMG!

Edited December 28, 2017 by PlummMeanGreen

[Harry]

@PlummMeanGreen good to get these recollections of the inner working of these decisions like the move down to IAA which have had such dramatic influence on our future.  We just do not have accurate reporting of this information and it is important historical insight for future generations to ponder.  

[untjim1995]

If you want to drive yourself insane, imagine the Big Eight coming in and grabbing us because the SWC as full already at 9 teams with UH and we would have been their 9th team. That's playing football in the late 70s thru the mid 90s against OU, Nebraska, Colorado, and Oklahoma State, many of them at their high points, as the only Texas team that gets to play them as a conference mate (think A&M today against the SEC). Then, imagine the Super Pit hosting conference games against Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Iowa State, as well as those incredible Oklahoma teams under Billy Tubbs.

Then think of how amazingly short-sighted it was to go SWC or bust and how Hayden Fry leaving us literally led to the ultimate give up of I-aa ball just 4 short seasons later.

[letsgiveacheer]

It is an interesting exercise thinking about what could have been.  

A few remembrances...

Texas is a football state and while we never set the MVC on fire, it was obvious that our campus' attention was on basketball. Many believed in those days that the Valley was the best overall conference in the nation. You could not get a seat in the Pit unless you came early.  I am sorry that most of you never had a chance to see a game there as the atmosphere was unbelievable.

When the MVC imploded, four of our former conference mates, Louisville, Cincinnati,  Memphis, and St Louis, went on to form the Metro conference along with two others. It was basketball only and I understand it was an attempt to form a super conference, without the weak links of the Valley such as us, Drake, West Texas, NMSU, Bradley, etc. They also wanted a metropolitan footprint, hence the name. I have no idea if we were extended an invitation to join or not but my guess was that we were not. I am not certain we were left with any alternative than to go independent in all sports.

As has been said many times, Fry is a world class raconteur. One such tale is that Roy Orbison was a student of his at Odessa High School! Fry and Orbison were in Odessa at the same time but Orbison had already been a student at NTSC before moving to Odessa!

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by letsgiveacheer

[GrayEagle]

Lest anyone believe that it was Hayden's leaving that caused us to drop to 1-AA that's another misstatement of fact.  

The NCAA, in its infinite wisdom, voted to split Division 1 into two parts.  The upper tier required a stadium of 30,000 and attendance of 17,000.  Dr. Hurley had decided that he wanted to improve academics at North Texas and the additional expense to comply with Division 1-A did not fit the budget.  

To Chancellor Hurley's credit, he did hire some noteworthy professors, tighten the entrance requirements and improve facilities to raise the stature of attending NTSU/UNT.  He said at the time that he wasn't doing athletics any favors by doing so and he was absolutely right.  We lost nearly all of our fan base and I believe soured the people of Denton and Denton County on the university.

PS  One other misstatement of fact by Hayden was that Iseed Khoury was Iranian.  He was born in Bethlehem, Israel.  

 

 

[PlummMeanGreen]

* This was a thread from 2017 that present UNT students, new alums & new member additions to GMG.com might find interesting if not informative.

 

[NorthTexasSportsNetwork]

In my opinion, if we got into the SWC, I think we would be a G5 powerhouse like a UCF/Boise State.

 

[wardly]

If the SWC had done basic financials on our Athletic Department they would have died laughing. We had no money. At all.