Denton activist leads protest of Confederate statue on the Square

[Skipper]

Nearly 80 people joined activist Willie Hudspeth Sunday evening to protest a Confederate monument on the Denton Square. Hudspeth, 71, has been protesting the Confederate monument on the Square nearly

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[TreeFiddy]

3...2...1...

[UNTFan23]

I did not know that the monument was already on museum grounds. Also, if the monument and the museum itself is preserved as part of the Texas Historic Commission, opponents of the monument have a long battle in from them.

[UNTLifer]

Willie needs to clean up his own yard before worrying about everyone else's.  His place at the corner Bonnie Brae and Oak is a total mess and an eyesore.

Willie is just a John Wiley Price starter kit.

[Green P1]

40 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Willie needs to clean up his own yard before worrying about everyone else's.  His place at the corner Bonnie Brae and Oak is a total mess and an eyesore.

Willie is just a John Wiley Price starter kit.

You are fake news. 

[meangreendork]

If it's on museum grounds, then I guess I'm OK with it. Though less so if it's one of those that came up during Jim Crow. I wonder if the metal portion was one of those mass-made units.

[UNTLifer]

3 hours ago, Green P1 said:

You are fake news. 

Willie is an activist in the same vein as JW Price and Quanell X in Houston.  This has been discussed for years and, as noted above, is on museum grounds.

[Green P1]

53 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Willie is an activist in the same vein as JW Price and Quanell X in Houston.  This has been discussed for years and, as noted above, is on museum grounds.

Oh. Ok. Close the thread I guess. 

 

Do most of your favorite museums feature black and white only water fountains right out front? 

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

http://www.dentonrc.com/news/denton/2017/06/16/denton-code-enforcement-case-gets-complicated-hudspeth-family



 

[UNTLifer]

8 hours ago, Green P1 said:

Oh. Ok. Close the thread I guess. 

 

Do most of your favorite museums feature black and white only water fountains right out front? 

No, and I am far from racist.  Based on the above comment, should D.C. close the Holocaust Museum?  I spent hours in there and it was extremely moving, disturbing and sad, but it is not something we should ever forget.  I grew up in Denton with friends that were of all races.  Luckily, Denton was way ahead of the times regarding desegregation and I really was never exposed to overt racism like some areas in that era.  Where does it all end?  Washington and Jefferson were slave owners.  Should their monuments, busts on Mt. Rushmore and faces on our currency be removed?  It is a touchy subject and effects everyone differently.  I would love to meet you personally.  Maybe you would refrain from making sweeping comments about what my favorite things are.

Edited August 24, 2017 by UNTLifer

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

This obviously takes it to a great, humorous extreme.  However, I've never understood - having been born, raised, and living almost my entire life in Texas - what the obsession is with Civil War flags, monuments, etc.

A few years back, Fake Lonnie had this discussion, and of course, it's always circular.  My main point is always this:  the Confederate Flag is the flag of a country that was the enemy of the United States; and, defeated by the United States. 

I don't care whether the argument for or against has to do with slavery, economics...whatever horsesh*t side you push, the Confederacy was briefly its own country, fought the United States, and lost.  Period.

Nazi Germany lost a war, largely to us, the British, and the Soviet Union.  We don't fly the Nazi flag here, and they don't in Germany.

The Soviets lost the Cold War.  And, when they broke up, the new Russia did not continue to use the commie-themed Sickle and Hammer as its flag.  All of you youngsters can google the pictures of former Soviet citizen toppling statues of Lenin, Marx, the founder of the KGB, etc. all over the former Soviet Union, normally within days of overthrowing and/or banning the Communist Party from their new countries.

I am by no stretch of the imagination liberal politically, but this Confederate thing never has made sense to me. I've been to the national park at Vicksburg, and the Union monuments there are larger and more prominent the those of the Confederacy, as it should be.  I am 164% unmoved by anything Confederate.

The Civil War re-enactments.  The Flag.  The Monuments.  The naming of counties, cities, and schools.  You have done all of this for the losing side.  We don't have schools, counties, and cities named after Hitler, Lennin, Marx, Mussolini, Hirohito, etc.

"Yeah...but, they weren't Americans!  They didn't fight in America."

I don't give a f*ck!  The Confederates declared that they weren't Americans either, and then got their asses kicked, okay?  I don't care whether their asses were kicked here or Katmandu.  They lost.  

You are flying the flag of losers when you fly the flags of Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, or the Confederacy.  You are paying homage to losers when you defend the f*cking generals who declared that they were not Americans anymore, but Confederates.  You memorialize losers when you name schools, cities, and counties after these losing generals.

How much more clear is it?  Give it the f*ck up.  You want to celebrate and champion losing?  Pete's peppers, as North Texas football fans, at minimum, you should know that mindset doesn't f*cking get you anywhere!  So, why accept it in the civic arena of life?

Are you trying to convince me that there are not other people in the history of all of these states who don't have better representatives to name schools after?  Counties?  Cities?  

Horsesh*t.  There are plenty of other people in Texas history who are better examples of Texans and/or Americans than Hood, Granbury, Lee, Jackson, etc.  Okay?

And, here's the consolation prize, if you must:  it doesn't make any f*cking difference in the scheme of things.  Open your eyes, for f*ck sake!  Has any community that has renamed schools, streets, buildings after MLK or Cesar Chavez or any other "minority" leader ever changed the poverty and crime in those neighborhoods?  No.

It's as much horsesh*t as the people who cling to the Confederate flags, monuments, and names.  It means nothing.  You still have to get up in the morning, put on your big boy pants, work, and earn your way in the this world, no matter what Avenue you live or drive on - MLK or Lee.  It doesn't f*cking matter.

At this point in history, it's just fodder for the infantile extremists on both sides of the political aisle.  Just give them what they want when it comes to these pointless, dumbsh*t "controversies."

Just let them tear the sh*t down, rename...whatever.  For f*ck sake, in most of the places you are talking about, the white people left decades ago anyway?  I haven't lived in Dallas County in two decades and would never move back there.  I could give less of a f*ck what they do with their building, school, and street names, and which monuments they want and don't want.

If it f*cking bothers you so much, move back down there and try to live as safely and comfortably as you live now in the suburbs, exurbs, or country.  

My only monument/naming problem is when they want to rename things named after World War I, World War II, Korean War, Vietnamese War generals and admirals, and Cold War politicians, who led the battle against real Nazism, real Fascism, real Imperialism, and real Communism.  There, you are f*cking with the times the United States was the winner.    

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by MeanGreenMailbox

[GTWT]

Sometimes, Mailbox, the good guys lose.  If you look closely you may find honor in defeat.  If you foster an open mind you may see the motives for this conflict were more complex, on both sides, than you seem to think.  It's okay to hate slavery.  It's not okay to say that slavery was the only thing this war was about.

I hate racism & slavery.  But I know enough about US history to know that there were opponents of slavery on both sides, and owners of slaves on both sides.  I also know that nearly every white person in 1860, on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Line, were racist.  The causes of the War Between the States were complex.  Good people fought on both sides. 

I am truly sorry if that last line sounds like it's from Trump.

[Rudy]

1 hour ago, GTWT said:

Sometimes, Mailbox, the good guys lose.  If you look closely you may find honor in defeat.  If you foster an open mind you may see the motives for this conflict were more complex, on both sides, than you seem to think.  It's okay to hate slavery.  It's not okay to say that slavery was the only thing this war was about.

I hate racism & slavery.  But I know enough about US history to know that there were opponents of slavery on both sides, and owners of slaves on both sides.  I also know that nearly every white person in 1860, on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Line, were racist.  The causes of the War Between the States were complex.  Good people fought on both sides. 

I am truly sorry if that last line sounds like it's from Trump.

This. 

[KRAM1]

You know, I have relatives who fought (and some died) on both sides of this conflict.  I have Yankees from Kansas (one being a Yankee unit Methodist preacher assigned to the troops) and Confederates from Alabama and Tennessee as relatives. And, I am proud of them all for their service. None of the Confederates came from slave owning families...in fact, they were just hard working farmers for the most part. And, all of them fought hard, but when it was over they laid down their arms, went home and built families and businesses and left this "war" thing alone. If they could today, I would bet those that fought on both sides would be sitting together, reminiscing about the war, their families and their careers while drinking some fine Tennessee sipping whiskey. All the while laughing at all these folks today making fools of themselves fighting over "stuff" they really can only speculate about.  I'll bet they are all having a really good laugh sitting TOGETHER in peace arm and arm sipping that Tennessee whiskey.  That's what I think about all this craziness.

And, just a little Willie Hudspeth background.  Willie was our youngest son's pee wee baseball coach. Great guy...wonderful coach with his priorities correctly set. Loved the guy coaching our son. And, yes, that Monument on the square has been a focus of his for a long time. But, funny thing is, even Willies goes back and forth on his opinions of it...he was against it staying...before he publicly starting campaigning for it to stay up....before he publicly started campaigning for its removal.

And, yes, his current place of business on Bonnie Brae has been cited by code enforcement numerous times and, I believe, Willie, is currently fighting the citations in court.

Willie Hudspeth is a good man. He is no John Wiley Price.  His protests are peaceful and carried out within the scope of the City of Denton regulations for such. And, when he speaks at Council meetings he more often than not does so in a respectful manner.  He, to my knowledge, has never incited violence no advocated such.  Like his stance or not...that is fine, but people should acknowledge that Willie Hudspeth is a good man and an asset to the citizens of Denton.  You don't have to agree with him to respect him..he has shown respect for lots of folks to whom he does not agree.  Just my thoughts and take on Willie and perhaps a tad bit of background on the man.

Edited August 25, 2017 by KRAM1

[UNTLifer]

Yes, my JWP starter kit comment was over the line.  Willie is, by all accounts a good man, but he does like to be in the spotlight.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

15 hours ago, GTWT said:

Sometimes, Mailbox, the good guys lose.  If you look closely you may find honor in defeat.  If you foster an open mind you may see the motives for this conflict were more complex, on both sides, than you seem to think.  It's okay to hate slavery.  It's not okay to say that slavery was the only thing this war was about.

I hate racism & slavery.  But I know enough about US history to know that there were opponents of slavery on both sides, and owners of slaves on both sides.  I also know that nearly every white person in 1860, on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Line, were racist.  The causes of the War Between the States were complex.  Good people fought on both sides. 

I am truly sorry if that last line sounds like it's from Trump.

No.  People owning other people as property is not a definition of "good guys."  The Confederates separated from the United States, fought it, and  lost.  The flags, monuments, and anything commemorates the Confederacy is commemorating losers.  And, not just losers, but vile losers. 

Most of my ancestors during that time period fought on the Confederate side, inasmuch as most of our folks going back 300+years were in North Carolina before heading west, ultimately to Tennessee, Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Texas.  There is one instance of a relative on the rolls of Union solders fighting with an Illinois regimen. 

So, when I say these things, I say that the majority of my ancestors were wrong.  Ignorant and wrong.  They were poor, sharecropping farmers misled by Confederates, and tens of thousands of others in Southern states were at the time. 

And, that's what makes the Confederate political and military leaders all the more despicable to me:  they knew the vast majority of their fellow Southerners lacked education.  They played on their ignorance to stir them up against the Union...for the sake of themselves and rich land owners, okay?    

Also, by the way, I think Trump said the right thing, but the media is just looking for any excuse to criticize him.  I am against public Confederate symbols,but I am equally against the behavior of the "mainstream media" treatment of Donald Trump.  Both disgust me. 

[Aldo]

Whatever you would like to believe the Civil War was about...whatever. The economics...of slavery. The politics...of slavery. The westward expansion...of slavery. States' rights...of slavery.

Complex? Sure. I've heard all the talking points for decades. This is nothing new to me as a person of color. I've been approached and exposed to it unwillingly many a time just because of what I look like.

When Lincoln won, the south lost all political control over the federal government. Because they felt they had the right to decided whatever they wanted on slavery. So they seceded from the United States.

As far as Confederate battle flags go. The increased prominence in the south - including government buildings - was a direct response to Brown v Board of Education, and other Supreme Court decisions. The State of Georgia did its own study and said as much. South Carolina did the same.

It wasn't a friggin secret.

The governor of Arkansas literally said "blood will run in the streets" if integration in schools happened. Then he closed schools after they continued with integration. That is what the Confederate battle flag represents. People who lived through that are still around today. It isn't something new that's popped up. It has continued to live on.

This isn't about heritage. What heritage and who's heritage are we talking about?

This isn't about political correctness. The Confederate battle flags rose to prominence as a protest and intimidation toward racial integration.

How do you think that makes us people of color feel? All they've got on me is what I look like. Not the content of my character or how my presence could potentially make their life a little brighter.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

1 hour ago, Aldo said:

Whatever you would like to believe the Civil War was about...whatever. The economics...of slavery. The politics...of slavery. The westward expansion...of slavery. States' rights...of slavery.

Complex? Sure. I've heard all the talking points for decades. This is nothing new to me as a person of color. I've been approached and exposed to it unwillingly many a time just because of what I look like.

When Lincoln won, the south lost all political control over the federal government. Because they felt they had the right to decided whatever they wanted on slavery. So they seceded from the United States.

As far as Confederate battle flags go. The increased prominence in the south - including government buildings - was a direct response to Brown v Board of Education, and other Supreme Court decisions. The State of Georgia did its own study and said as much. South Carolina did the same.

It wasn't a friggin secret.

The governor of Arkansas literally said "blood will run in the streets" if integration in schools happened. Then he closed schools after they continued with integration. That is what the Confederate battle flag represents. People who lived through that are still around today. It isn't something new that's popped up. It has continued to live on.

This isn't about heritage. What heritage and who's heritage are we talking about?

This isn't about political correctness. The Confederate battle flags rose to prominence as a protest and intimidation toward racial integration.

How do you think that makes us people of color feel? All they've got on me is what I look like. Not the content of my character or how my presence could potentially make their life a little brighter.

Yes.

I'm not a person of color, but am married to a "minority."  These things - the flags, the monuments, building names, school names, etc. - what end does it really support?

Some say history.  But, we can look back at history without flying the flags and making monuments of other countries who lost to the United States.  You can learn about history, and preserve it, without publicly displaying objects that are used mainly to promote racism. 

By the way, for the same reasons, I don't like when Mexican here illegally parade around with Mexican flags.  My wife is from Mexico, and she's disgusted by that as well. The reason she and others immigrated to America was because it is a better country than Mexico.  (SIDE NOTE:  She applied for American citizenship in April rather than renewing her green card again...so, we're going through that long, but necessary and proper, process.  If you've never been through it, it's like dealing with the post office x100.)

These illegals that carry the Mexican flag around, they are as duped by their stupid government as the poor farmers and sharecroppers of the South were by the Confederate leaders.  The Mexican politicians could care less about its people.  If they did, they would be doing everything they could to help their own poor in their own country!

Mexico is controlled by a rich class of politicians and business leaders...favorites and friends of the politicians.  They love the money the illegals send by home.  It takes away, in their mind, that much more of their responsibility to their own people.  America has many bad politicians, but none are as craven and self-serving as Mexican politicians.

We are getting dangerously close to this political-business control in America right now.  Before Bill Clinton, it was mainly Republicans tied to powerful, big business interested.  Clinton and post-Clinton, its the Democrats who now get a larger share of that money.

Both sides are now dangerously intermingled with big business interests, protecting them at all turns.  That's why you see organizations like labor unions and the Chamber of Commerce shilling for illegal immigrants.  It's sickening.

The Confederate monuments and flags were put up for the wrong reasons, and still signify an incorrect mindset/worldview.  The Confederacy was not, and still is not, something to be celebrated.  The only thing positive about the Confederacy is that it was defeated.  And, we fly the flag of the victor, the United States, today - not their flag.   



 

Edited August 25, 2017 by MeanGreenMailbox

[Mean Green 93-98]

1 hour ago, Aldo said:

The Confederate battle flags rose to prominence as a protest and intimidation toward racial integration.

At a certain time and among some groups.  But the Confederate battle flag had been proudly displayed long before that, and has since been displayed by countless people who have no such leanings whatsoever toward segregation.

 

1 hour ago, Aldo said:

How do you think that makes us people of color feel? All they've got on me is what I look like. Not the content of my character or how my presence could potentially make their life a little brighter.

The high school where my kids attend features a rebel flag on the school sign.  Many blacks attend there, as do many hispanics (I assume you are including them in your "people of color").  But those teachers and administrators do everything they can to help those kids succeed.  Your sentiment might apply toward rebel-flag waving segregationists (and there are some), but it doesn't apply toward all who have an affinity toward the rebel flag.  For many, it is entirely a symbol of regional pride.

For the record, I have no interest whatsoever in displaying the rebel flag at my house, on my car, or on my person, largely because I know there are people who feel the way you do.  But there are a lot of people who don't.

[Aldo]

37 minutes ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

But the Confederate battle flag had been proudly displayed long before that

 

37 minutes ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

 For many, it is entirely a symbol of regional pride.

Pride of what?

[Mean Green 93-98]

1 minute ago, Aldo said:

 

Are you unfamiliar with Southern pride?  It has to do with a lot of things, in large part with shared traits--a healthy, drawled accent; an agricultural background; a love for sweet tea, turnip greens, and peach cobbler.  The fact that the rest of the country somewhat scorns southerners only feeds that Southern pride.

[Aldo]

Just now, Mean Green 93-98 said:

Are you unfamiliar with Southern pride?  It has to do with a lot of things, in large part with shared traits--a healthy, drawled accent; an agricultural background; a love for sweet tea, turnip greens, and peach cobbler.  The fact that the rest of the country somewhat scorns southerners only feeds that Southern pride.

I know what southern pride is and I can get all that at Cracker Barrel.

My question is specifically what pride does the Confederate battle flag represent? 

[Mean Green 93-98]

Just now, Aldo said:

I know what southern pride is and I can get all that at Cracker Barrel.

My question is specifically what pride does the Confederate battle flag represent? 

To many people, Southern.

[MeanGreenTexan]

4 minutes ago, Aldo said:

I know what southern pride is and I can get all that at Cracker Barrel.

My question is specifically what pride does the Confederate battle flag represent? 

[Aldo]

9 minutes ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

To many people, Southern.

While your reasoning is incredibly tenuous and spurious, since the Confederate flag directly represents 1. the secession of the United States to protect southern "interests" and 2. a historical response to integration I'll just say sure I'll play along that a secessionist flag = southern pride.

What does a statue of a confederate general represent? Southern pride as well? If we're going with history, where are all the Loyalist statues? Benedict Arnold High School. Charles Cornwallis Fighting Yorkies. 

I use my sarcasm to deflect disappointment and frustration, but I just don't buy the reasoning, man.

6 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Hey! They have good cobbler.