Denton County Fastest Growing in America

[AustinFromUNT]

Do you think this helps, hurts, or has no effect on how people see UNT? Also, do you think this is something we could sell to recruits I.e. People want to live here so you should want to come here.

Edited August 10, 2017 by AustinFromUNT

[BTG_Fan1]

1 hour ago, AustinFromUNT said:

Do you think this helps, hurts, or has no effect on how people see UNT? Also, do you think this is something we could sell to recruits I.e. People want to live here so you should want to come here.

I don't think it helps or hurts any 18 year old because they are just focused on where they wanna go and play football... 

Not till they are older does it really become something they would think about... The benefit is that that possibly down the line you have more talent that is local to pick from...

[dmaxel]

I'm sure the university is going to advertise that fact not necessarily to athletic recruits but to the prospective student population as a whole.

[UNTFan23]

You can thank communities like Frisco, Little Elm, and The Colony (among others) for helping to grow the county.

[Tyler Maryak]

27 minutes ago, dmaxel said:

I'm sure the university is going to advertise that fact not necessarily to athletic recruits but to the prospective student population as a whole.

Yeah, the line "30 minutes from the big city and 30 minutes from the quiet country" was a selling point for me when I toured.

[SilverEagle]

The reasons that people move to Denton County, and the Denton County communities that represent the fastest growth (Frisco etc) are not the same reasons that 18 year olds go to North Texas. More to the point, the 18 year olds that play at a higher level of skill and ability than what we have recruited in the past. Those 18 year olds want to go to schools that have a much better sports culture than what North Texas has presented to the metroplex......or to the rest of the state for that matter.

It doesn't help that we have one of the nicest college facilities in CUSA and arguably the Metroplex, and we have yet to fill it up since it opened. When recruits visit our games, that is not lost on them. Especially if they come from programs that regularly sell out their stadiums.

It's not a fair comparison, but West Texas A&M's stadium (Kimbrough) has a capacity of 20K. The student enrollment is 9900. I have no idea what the population of the Amarillo/Canyon area is, but it has to be trivial compared to Denton County. Their largest attendance was a SRO crowd of  23,276 vs Eastern New Mexico in 2007.........Eastern New Mexico forgodsakes! When  Don Carthel  was coaching there WTAM averaged somewhere around 15K per game.  And this is a stadium that is 2 miles away from campus. They are now making plans to give/sell Kimbrough Stadium to Canyon ISD and build a smaller  on campus stadium.......http://map.wtamu.edu/map/?id=458#!ct/4072?m/125562.  But I'd be willing to bet a six pack of Alien Ale, that this new stadium will be sold out on a regular basis.

We couldn't sell out Apogee when we had Indiana and Houston come to town.

Do I have to say the C word again?

 

Edited August 12, 2017 by SilverEagle

[NorthTexan95]

My family moved to Plano, TX when I was 2 (1972).  I lived there through the tremendous growth of the city and just accepted that as normal.  Having lived away from Texas for the past 15 years I can tell you it's not.   Most places will some growth but nothing like this.  Having two counties next to each other as the #1 and #2 for growth is tremendous.  This growth won't last forever but it seems to have been going on my entire life and apparently still has a long ways to go.  

We just moved back to the area (McKinney) this summer and I feel blessed to be here. 

[buff64]

Amarillo/Canyon population close to 200,000. Canyon ISD already owns Kimbrough .

[GrandGreen]

7 hours ago, SilverEagle said:

The reasons that people move to Denton County, and the Denton County communities that represent the fastest growth (Frisco etc) are not the same reasons that 18 year olds go to North Texas. More to the point, the 18 year olds that play at a higher level of skill and ability than what we have recruited in the past. Those 18 year olds want to go to schools that have a much better sports culture than what North Texas has presented to the metroplex......or to the rest of the state for that matter.

It doesn't help that we have one of the nicest college facilities in CUSA and arguably the Metroplex, and we have yet to fill it up since it opened. When recruits visits our games, that is not lost on them. Especially if they come from programs that regularly sell out their stadiums.

It's not a fair comparison, but West Texas A&M's stadium (Kimbrough) has a capacity of 20K. The student enrollment is 9900. I have no idea what the population of the Amarillo/Canyon area is, but it has to be trivial compared to Denton County. Their largest attendance was a SRO crowd of  23,276 vs Eastern New Mexico in 2007.........Eastern New Mexico forgodsakes! When  Don Carthel  was coaching there WTAM averaged somewhere around 15K per game.  And this is a stadium that is 2 miles away from campus. They are now making plans to give/sell Kimbrough Stadium to Canyon ISD and build a smaller  on campus stadium.......http://map.wtamu.edu/map/?id=458#!ct/4072?m/125562.  But I'd be willing to bet a six pack of Alien Ale, that this new stadium will be sold out on a regular basis.

We couldn't sell out Apogee when we had Indiana and Houston come to town.

Do I have to say the C word again?

 

Ever think continuing harping on NT's poor culture might actually contribute to that culture?    

[Ben Gooding]

4 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Ever think continuing harping on NT's poor culture might actually contribute to that culture?    

I think I can speak for him here, and the answer to your question is no. But ignoring it won't help it either. 

[untjim1995]

7 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Ever think continuing harping on NT's poor culture might actually contribute to that culture?    

Yeah, because actually identifying the single biggest problem we have and the Apathy Monster it has created for about 50 + years and trying to make people aware of what has to change is really contributing to the problem...

[SilverEagle]

26 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

Yeah, because actually identifying the single biggest problem we have and the Apathy Monster it has created for about 50 + years and trying to make people aware of what has to change is really contributing to the problem...

This....

But let me try a different example.  Years ago I used to go walking during my lunch hour with an administrator that was officed in my building. She had school aged children, so education was an important subject of discussion during our walks. One day she mentioned that she was glad to hear that a school bond issue was approved for a school district that wasn't too far from where she lived. And because it involved an area with underperforming schools, she hoped/felt that it would improve things for the students in that district.

I told her that  I hoped for the same thing, but I added that you could build the Taj Mahal  of educational facilities in an underperforming area but it wouldn't necessarily cause the parents of those children to care more about education. I went on to say that the kids that grow up in households that value education are the ones that are going to do best in school. We're talking about parents that talk and/or sing to their kids when they were feeding them a bottle as infants. We're talking about parents that talk TO their children and not AT their children. And parents that find time to read to them. Not only at bedtime, but other times as well.

In other words, education and/or the expectation of constantly seeking knowledge needs to be part of the family's..........CULTURE.  The other thing that families like these do is have family routines and family traditions........with the EXPECTATION THAT EVERYONE PARTICIPATE.

We have a nice modern campus located in a high growth area.

We have a new, beautiful, and very well planned facility

We have a large student body and large local alumni base.

And yet we have never sold out the aforementioned new and beautiful facility.

Let's see, what could possibly be missing here?

[GrandGreen]

On 8/11/2017 at 10:22 AM, Ben Gooding said:

I think I can speak for him here, and the answer to your question is no. But ignoring it won't help it either. 

 

On 8/11/2017 at 10:27 AM, untjim1995 said:

Yeah, because actually identifying the single biggest problem we have and the Apathy Monster it has created for about 50 + years and trying to make people aware of what has to change is really contributing to the problem...

Blaming culture for a problem is just another way to said I have no idea what the problem is.  Define how NT's culture impedes anything.  Culture could and has been used to rationalize almost anything.  It is an always present explanation that really doesn't define anything.  Hell, even RV used it as an excuse when he above all others was responsible for the than state of athletics.   

NT's lack of success in major sports can be traced to two factors, bad decisions and failure to invest in athletics.   For years, NT invested just enough to remain on the fringe of college athletics.  This resulted in a long string of questionable hires were affordability was always a very limiting factor.   What other program has hired two high school coaches to lead their football program?  What other program would allow a AD to stay for over 15 years with little success in wins and losses in the major sports, lackluster donations, and a seemingly lack of direction?   You can call all this culture, but that really doesn't define anything.  

I believe that the McCarney hiring signaled a different era at NT.   No longer was NT content to exist on the edge, they were actually doing something to move up.  The early termination of McCarney, the very late termination of RV, the upgrading in terms of investment in the AD, football and basketball coaches; all are indications that NT is remaining serious about athletics. 

Every G5 and a lot of P5 are struggling to kept up and have the same issues as NT.   A diminishing sports fan base, enormous entertainment competition, and the never-ending athletic arms race.   Teams are no longer just competing with a few tv games and area competition for attendance, they are competing with media that offer access to just about anything including their own home games.   Most students at most colleges are not dire-hard sports fans.  Many will follow a winner, but not a bad or even average team.  

Good decisions and more resources are the long-term drivers of good results or if you insist a favorable culture change.    

Edited August 15, 2017 by GrandGreen

[untjim1995]

1 minute ago, GrandGreen said:

 

Blaming culture for a problem is just another way to said I have no idea what the problem is.  Define how NT's culture impedes anything.  Culture could and has been used to rationalize almost anything.  It is an always present explanation that really doesn't define anything.  Hell, even RV used it as an excuse when he above all others was responsible for the than state of athletics.   

NT's lack of success in major sports can be traced to two factors, bad decisions and failure to invest in athletics.   For years, NT invested just enough to remain on the fringe of college athletics.  This resulted in a long string of questionable hires were affordability was always a very limiting factor.   What other program has hired two high school coaches to lead their football program?  What other program would allow a AD to stay for over 15 years with little success in wins and losses in the major sports, lackluster donations, and a seemingly lack of direction?   You can call all this culture, but that really doesn't define anything.  

I believe that the McCarney hiring signaled a different era at NT.   No longer was NT content to exist on the edge, they were actually doing something to move up.  The early termination of McCarney, the very late termination of RV, the upgrading in terms of investment in the AD, football and basketball coaches; all are indications that NT is remaining serious about athletics. 

Every G5 and a lot of P5 are struggling to kept up and have the same issues as NT.   A dwelling sports fan base, enormous entertainment competition, and the never-ending athletic arms race.   Teams are no longer just competing with a few tv games and area competition for attendance, they are competing with media that offer access to just about anything including their own home games.   Most students at most colleges are not dire-hard sports fans.  Many will follow a winner, but not a bad or even average team.  

Good decisions and more resources are the long-term drivers of good results or if you insist a favorable culture change.    

Look, I agree with you on the DMac point, for sure. He showed we would pay more than ever before for a coach, same like we have seen with SL and Grant McCasland. I just think the "bad decisions" and "failure to invest in athletics" was actually do to Apathy, not any other reason. The administration, faculty, alumni, student body, and local citizenry overwhelmingly don't like UNT Athletics getting anything. Maybe that has changed a bit in the last decade, but certainly not enough to say we are anywhere close to having this mindset even change. So we get actual Butts-in-seats at Apogee at around 15k versus the actual 10k we got at Fouts usually--that can be sold a s a huge increase, but the reality is that it is still ridiculously low. Silver is dead-on--the reason for it is the apathy of the program, which was culturally instilled decades and decades ago. Otherwise, we would have seen a sellout of Apogee, Fouts, or the Super Pit at some point in the last 25 years.

[Ben Gooding]

3 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

 

Blaming culture for a problem is just another way to said I have no idea what the problem is.  Define how NT's culture impedes anything.  Culture could and has been used to rationalize almost anything.  It is an always present explanation that really doesn't define anything.  Hell, even RV used it as an excuse when he above all others was responsible for the than state of athletics.   

NT's lack of success in major sports can be traced to two factors, bad decisions and failure to invest in athletics.   For years, NT invested just enough to remain on the fringe of college athletics.  This resulted in a long string of questionable hires were affordability was always a very limiting factor.   What other program has hired two high school coaches to lead their football program?  What other program would allow a AD to stay for over 15 years with little success in wins and losses in the major sports, lackluster donations, and a seemingly lack of direction?   You can call all this culture, but that really doesn't define anything.  

I believe that the McCarney hiring signaled a different era at NT.   No longer was NT content to exist on the edge, they were actually doing something to move up.  The early termination of McCarney, the very late termination of RV, the upgrading in terms of investment in the AD, football and basketball coaches; all are indications that NT is remaining serious about athletics. 

Every G5 and a lot of P5 are struggling to kept up and have the same issues as NT.   A dwelling sports fan base, enormous entertainment competition, and the never-ending athletic arms race.   Teams are no longer just competing with a few tv games and area competition for attendance, they are competing with media that offer access to just about anything including their own home games.   Most students at most colleges are not dire-hard sports fans.  Many will follow a winner, but not a bad or even average team.  

Good decisions and more resources are the long-term drivers of good results or if you insist a favorable culture change.    

Well, it's simple. A bad football or athletic culture starts with bad attendance. Admission and concession dollars are two big variables of revenue streams. To add, players see the low attendance during their visits. Do you think they would want to come play in a stadium that typically sits 2/5 to 2/3 full on any given game, or go to a place where it's rockin' and 4/5 full? This type of thing makes a big difference. Player visits on game days are a big deal. With the bad culture, obviously comes the apathy of donating. Not enough do it. I mean the culture obviously changes from the inside out. It starts with an administrative change in thought processes and fiscal spending. Then it has to move into winning. But for the wheel to start gaining real speed, it has to reach the fans and alum. If it doesn't, it's all for nothing. That's kind of why I was on the little rant yesterday about the AD holding things so close. If we don't reach new students, alum, genpop, how long do you think UNT can keep up at its current level of spending. The answer, not very. 

[SilverEagle]

21 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

 

Blaming culture for a problem is just another way to said I have no idea what the problem is.  Define how NT's culture impedes anything.  Culture could and has been used to rationalize almost anything.  It is an always present explanation that really doesn't define anything.  Hell, even RV used it as an excuse when he above all others was responsible for the than state of athletics.   

NT's lack of success in major sports can be traced to two factors, bad decisions and failure to invest in athletics.   For years, NT invested just enough to remain on the fringe of college athletics.  This resulted in a long string of questionable hires were affordability was always a very limiting factor.   What other program has hired two high school coaches to lead their football program?  What other program would allow a AD to stay for over 15 years with little success in wins and losses in the major sports, lackluster donations, and a seemingly lack of direction?   You can call all this culture, but that really doesn't define anything.  

I believe that the McCarney hiring signaled a different era at NT.   No longer was NT content to exist on the edge, they were actually doing something to move up.  The early termination of McCarney, the very late termination of RV, the upgrading in terms of investment in the AD, football and basketball coaches; all are indications that NT is remaining serious about athletics. 

Every G5 and a lot of P5 are struggling to kept up and have the same issues as NT.   A dwelling sports fan base, enormous entertainment competition, and the never-ending athletic arms race.   Teams are no longer just competing with a few tv games and area competition for attendance, they are competing with media that offer access to just about anything including their own home games.   Most students at most colleges are not dire-hard sports fans.  Many will follow a winner, but not a bad or even average team.  

Good decisions and more resources are the long-term drivers of good results or if you insist a favorable culture change.    

The bolded part of your response is a very good example of culture. We invested just enough and made questionable hires because THAT'S A BIG PART OF OUR CULTURE. Fund raising for athletics, or even for general scholarships was for decades forbidden. We had a coach that coached here for 25 years. As a result the administration had no experience in hiring a new coach, and when we did, our administration was way out of touch.

The guy who WAS in touch, Jitter Nolan, was the one who hired Hayden Fry.  Who went about trying to change the culture at North Texas. When he gave up and went to Iowa, it wasn't long before the old culture took back over and ran Jitter Nolan out of town.

RV liked the culture of just-stay-in-your-budget-and-don't-rock-the-boat. That's why he lasted 15 years.........our dysfunctional athletic culture.

 

[UNTLifer]

1 hour ago, untjim1995 said:

Yeah, because actually identifying the single biggest problem we have and the Apathy Monster it has created for about 50 + years and trying to make people aware of what has to change is really contributing to the problem...

The biggest problem is the people that expect an AD that hasn't been here for 1 year to change this overnight.

[Ben Gooding]

10 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

The biggest problem is the people that expect an AD that hasn't been here for 1 year to change this overnight.

Yeah, this is it. Totally. No. This is dumb af. 

[UNTLifer]

5 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

Yeah, this is it. Totally. No. This is dumb af. 

Christmas Turkey, you are clueless and prove it every time you put your thoughts on here.

[Ben Gooding]

7 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Christmas Turkey, you are clueless and prove it every time you put your thoughts on here.

Sounds like a lie. js. 

[GrandGreen]

This is obviously a circular debate.   Calling things apathy or cultural defect denotes what?   Apathy on the part of who?  People who don't care to go to NT athletic events or an Administration that didn't invest enough in athletics.   That is not apathy that is people making decisions, right or wrong it is not apathy.   

Using Jitter as an example of the development of a positive athletic culture obviously has some pitfalls.  I do think the termination of Nolan was a turning point in NT athletics.   NT could have build on the successes of Blakeley and Fry, but instead decided to make reducing athletic costs the primary goal.  Not culture, some very bad decisions that has led to decades of NT's major athletes being in almost continuous decline.   

Culture refers to the habits, ideas, customs of an organization.  You can threw anything in that basket, I just don't see any value in identifying an issue in those terms.   

 

[Ben Gooding]

5 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

This is obviously a circular debate.   Calling things apathy or cultural defect denotes what?   Apathy on the part of who?  People who don't care to go to NT athletic events or an Administration that didn't invest enough in athletics.   That is not apathy that is people making decisions, right or wrong it is not apathy.   

Using Jitter as an example of the development of a positive athletic culture obviously has some pitfalls.  I do think the termination of Nolan was a turning point in NT athletics.   NT could have build on the successes of Blakeley and Fry, but instead decided to make reducing athletic costs the primary goal.  Not culture, some very bad decisions that has led to decades of NT's major athletes being in almost continuous decline.   

Culture refers to the habits, ideas, customs of an organization.  You can threw anything in that basket, I just don't see any value in identifying an issue in those terms.   

 

ap·a·thy

ˈapəTHē/

noun

 

1. lack of interest, enthusiasm, or concern.

    

    

   I mean....It's kind of textbook apathy. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Ben Gooding

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

22 hours ago, AustinFromUNT said:

Do you think this helps, hurts, or has no effect on how people see UNT? Also, do you think this is something we could sell to recruits I.e. People want to live here so you should want to come here.

Small, rural, state schools seem to pile up their share of national titles in college football:  Bama, OU, Nebraska, LSU...Clemson.

Population means nothing.  Otherwise, New York and Chicago would have national caliber college football programs.  SMU, anyone?  Houston?  Is there a national power school in St. Louis? 

Schools like USC and Miami, "big city school" don't really cater to the general populous of those cities because they are private, not public.

Again, winning gets the recruits' attention.

[GrandGreen]

9 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

ap·a·thy

ˈapəTHē/

noun

 

1. lack of interest, enthusiasm, or concern.

    

    

   I mean....It's kind of textbook apathy. 

Making a decision is not apathy.  

[southsideguy]

To bad the roads in the area are the same as they were in late 70's.  The city of Denton has no future planning and they tend to react to things five to ten years down the road and then that plan is already outdated.  They just built two big subdivisions on a road that already has traffic problems and the two roads that will service the subdivisions are just two lane roads.    They need to say no to new subdivision until they have the proper roads in place.  Traffic in Denton is terrible and the roads are in bad shape.  The mayor is a clueless guy and the city planner must be just be drawing a paycheck for showing up. sorry my complaint for the day.  However, I live here anyway so i can go UNT games.