Lamar 2017 home opener: what's the plan?

[BTG_Fan1]

2 hours ago, UNTFan23 said:

I hate giving stuff away for free. When you give stuff away for free your value placed by those receiving the free stuff is NOTHING. They're not invested at any level (emotionally, financially, etc) and so their motivation to attend a game is near zero. If they choose to not go, they lose NOTHING.

I've gotten tickets for sporting events for free and never went. Why? I wasn't invested in the game and so my loss of not going was NOTHING. Guess what, by me not caring one bit and not attending the game, I didn't buy anything since I never went.

Ugh. Why do people insist on lowballing the value of our sports programs.

If you're going to give something away, tie it to the cost of buying season tickets. Perhaps something like "Buy new Graduate Season Tickets and park for free at the Fouts Lot!" Make buying those tickets with something of value tied to it.

How are recent grads that would redeem the tickets not invested in the program? The AD office isn't mailing out packets with tickets to every grad. Its likely a packet with information saying call this # and it you will be redeemed with 1 year of free season tickets at Will Call or something along those lines. 

The alumni that would be redeeming this offer would likely attend the games because they are contacting the ticket office. The reason why we low-ball the value of our sports programs is because of our history. 

I get the Buy Grad Season Tickets and park for free, but you can park on campus for free. Do something like Buy Grad Tickets and get free access to the Alumni Pavilion, or pre-game tailgates. If they buy Grad Season Tickets, show them the perks of buying the tickets.

2 hours ago, Harry said:

I didn't say discount for the entire season.  I said for the opening game.  That game sets a tone for the season and having a good atmosphere is important.  A good crowd will help that.  All I am saying is that why are some perfectly ok with seeing an empty wing zone when it could be full of potential season ticket holders who will buy concessions?  Does that not damage the value of the product as well?

It does no damage at all. If anything I think it makes the players more pumped up seeing more people, and it shows to recruits that people do show up to UNT. Another good thing as well about football, is that even if people don't know/understand it, its pretty easy to know when to cheer, etc. 

I've brought this up before but will use a example that happened to me. The Southern Miss game, the AD Office offered up free seats to people who wanted them. Ended up with my parents getting 4 free tickets, 2 for them and they brought 2 family friends as well. To make a long story short, instead of UNT only making 40 bucks off tickets, the 5 of us ended up spending more on hot chocolate, nachos, etc at the concession stand at buying stuff from the team store. 

Also, it ended up on them deciding to get season tickets as well after the bowl game experience as well.

56 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

And the huge issue here is that non-diehards don't want to go watch Lamar or any other FCS spare play here. Its blazing hot at that time of the year and football fans in this area aren't going to skip watching Alabama and Florida State play in a neutral site game from the comfort of their homes. Hell, it isn't even just with FCS spares. Back in 2013, a very good Ball State team played here in an afternoon game that we came back and won, in front of about 12k butts in seats. Meanwhile, A&M and Bama are playing each other in a top five matchup and non-diehards aren't gonna be swayed to go watch us play OOC games against teams that nobody cares about.

RV screwed us royally with the games against Nicholls State, Portland State, Bethune-Cookman, Lamar, Rhode Island, Incarnate Word, and Houston Baptist. Those games don't help you at all with the problems you have. You win against Nicholls State by 70, it doesn't help you beat anyone else. You lose to Portland State by 50+ on Homecoming, your reputation and program are immediately destroyed and the rebuilding has to start over. These FCS spares don't help us--maybe they do other programs, but not us. And we built Apogee with the promise that it would bring in better OOC opponents than we got at Fouts, not worse...

While I do agree, its not a sexy match up like Bama-FSU but right now all UNT needs to do is get wins that qualify us for a bowl game. I don't care if we beat Lamar by 70 or if we beat UTSA by 1. Heck, I know many people will not like it on but I would like to see us have Lamar and someone else like Lamar (replace the body-bag game) and that gets us 2 wins and closer to a bowl game. 

The Portland State game honestly was a huge bombshell throughout the entire AD Program, and will take many, many years to recover. Alumni that came back to the game likely that were on the fringes of the program will likely not recover till we do something major. 

While I do agree that these FCS games do not help us, and that playing someone like Indiana or Kansas would be nice, right now for us to recover and change the view of UNT is to win. I think in 3 or 4 years after winning repeatedly then we can set those up. I do understand that we would prefer to get a W vs a Kansas than someone like Lamar, but it's down to how we think success is built.

To me, I would rather play Lamar and Lamar XYZ (pick whatever FCS) and go 2-0 than go 1-1 vs Lamar and small p5. The end goal is to get to a bowl game, and to go to bowl games repeatedly. 

19 minutes ago, KRAM1 said:

I just recall the old promotions adage..."an empty seat never bought a hot dog"... or a beer or parking or anything else for that matter.

I, too, think making tickets free indicates a value of zero.  But, I would be good with "but one-get one", "one free kids ticket with an adult ticket", some sort of discounted Wing Zone family pack, a section where you get food and drink vouchers, etc., etc. Not just "free".

Giving away free season tickets to recent grads does not show it has 0 value at all... The students that get the tickets already know the value of a UNT game. By giving away tickets to the recent grads it should be apparent that they are doing it to increase the support from the alumni side of the fan base. Us giving them the tickets for free is showing them that UNT wants them to come back, and that having pride in UNT and being part of the UNT Family continues even after you graduate.  

2 minutes ago, forevereagle said:

There is a value to the program, but if the ticket has no value to the individual, they may not show up. I gave nothing to get the ticket, thus I lose nothing by not redeeming it. Actual attendance did not increase, no additional revenue was generated, and that seat is not available to sell to someone else. We didn't gain anything. This is not the Cowboys, who can give away a ticket and people know that they got really lucky to get the ticket because it is very valuable. We don't have that value attached, so people don't care if they show up or not. In fact, there is possible long term damage as that person may only attend again if the ticket is free then as well since we have effectively told them that the ticket has no value. That would be damaging to the program. 

The season tickets/tickets that are being redeemed by recent alumni are likely something like call this # and we will mail you the tickets, not them putting seat x in section section y and mailing them out to everyone. So its not like we are losing a # of seats likely. 

The tickets do have a value to the recent alumni that redeem them. Yes, some recent grads will in a year or 2 who got free season tickets will not renew when it costs money, but even if we get 5 % to renew because of the experience from the free ticket it is worth it.

A free seat equals 0 profit now and will forever equal 0 in potential profit, but a free seat today could 0 profit in the future or it could lead to something. The free ticket has more potential than a unused seat.

4 minutes ago, Harry said:

If they do not have a ticket they will not show up.  Key difference.

You guys are taking this down a rabbit trail I don't mean to go down.  Sure I want to maximize revenue to the program.  But I would like to fans sitting in the Wing more.  I don't like seeing it empty in every picture I see.

Have you been to the upper levels of the wing?  It's hot, and a long way up pretty vertical stairs.  By virtue of its temporary status in the plans,  it does not open itself up to older fans who may have knee issues etc trying to get up and down.  It is crying out for some type of promotion or something to help fill it up.  Someday after many consecutive winning seasons maybe we won't have that problem but we do now.  Why not discuss potential solutions?

Potential solution would be offering free tickets to different local HS Jr/Srs. Sale UNT to the local kids and parents, and change the mindset that UNT is a backup school because its not on the same name brand level of a UT/AM/ etc.

The students show up from say like 10-12 and groups of them go around the campus.... then at the end they can get a game ticket and sit in the wing..

4 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

My thing is if someone doesn't care enough to go and buy a ticket, how are they going to care enough to go if the ticket is free? Each free ticket that is not actually used limits (and reduces) your revenue potential.

I guess the bigger question is which do you care more about in the long term -- attendance or increasing revenue -- because as long as you are giving away tickets for free you can't have both.

We have enough open seats already that it will not make an impact within the next 2-3 years. In the mean time, we get more butts in the seats...

A butt in a seat is a potential profit if its from food, team store or such a great experience it leads to season tickets, an open seat leads to nothing... To me, the potential earning power is in a free ticket over no free tickets.

Sorry for the long rant

 

[NM Green]

I like Denton pride day where the kid gets a free ticket and parents get 1/2 price or some family snacks.  

GMG

[Ben Gooding]

If we're going to do an FCS*, we should do it the home opener every season. Home openers, regardless of opponent, will bring in a decent crowd...

Home Openers (Since Apogee Opened)

2011 - 28,075

2012 - 22,259

2013 - 21,975

2014 - 22,398

2015 - 19,602

2016 - 24,718 

Average - 23,171 

2,141 more than our best overall season average (2013; 21,030). 

Some outliers here...2 games vs SMU. And of course the stadium debut vs UH. Takeaway the huge outlier (UH in 2011) and the average attendance for home openers is still 22,190. Which is still 1,160 more than our best season average ever. 22,190 is nothing to hang our hat on, but it's better than what we get most games. It shows that people come out to watch us early. Therefore, we need it to be a lesser name, and we need to win in front of them. 

*I'm a supporter of playing an FCS every year. We need a winning culture, and starting out on the right foot every year is a good way to start. 

[UNTFan23]

We could give away every single ticket in the wing zone and if we managed a 25% success rate (meaning 25% of those that got a free ticket or voucher actually showed up) I'd consider it a massive success. Whether that 25% do more like purchase concessions/apparel is one's guess but hopefully they do.

[Ben Gooding]

@BTG_Fan1 

"The AD office isn't mailing out packets with tickets to every grad." 

To me, this is actually a good idea. Want people to invest in you? Invest in them? New grads should receive 2 season home opener tix. 

[BTG_Fan1]

2 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

*I'm a supporter of playing an FCS every year. We need a winning culture, and starting out on the right foot every year is a good way to start. 

Its a good way to come out and get players settled down, and gives/builds confidence in what they do.

The Nerves/Hype that the players seemed to play with vs SMU, if they had worked that off vs BC and then played SMU without the nerves/hype like they did BC it likely would have resulted in 2 wins and not 1.

2 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

We could give away every single ticket in the wing zone and if we managed a 25% success rate (meaning 25% of those that got a free ticket or voucher actually showed up) I'd consider it a massive success. Whether that 25% do more like purchase concessions/apparel is one's guess but hopefully they do.

Even 1 or 2% from that 25 will be nice... When I worked at restaurant it was something like a customer would have to order 7 or 8 refills just to break even. Us by selling 1 soda you likely are making a 50% profit on it, the only question is what is the split with the organization that is running the stand?

1 minute ago, Ben Gooding said:

@BTG_Fan1 

"The AD office isn't mailing out packets with tickets to every grad." 

To me, this is actually a good idea. Want people to invest in you? Invest in them? New grads should receive 2 season home opener tix. 

Only bad thing is if we mail out tickets, then we can't sale those if everyone no-shows.

While we likely still wouldn't run out it look weird with 1 section that is completely empty, I'd offer them call and get the tickets at a Grad Student Will Call, or they can do it online and print them out for free. 

Heck offer them a tail-gate/meal in the super-pit and have NS/WB and the basketball coaches talk to them about the Goals/ Mission Statement for UNT Athletics. 

[UNTFan23]

1 hour ago, Ben Gooding said:

@BTG_Fan1 

"The AD office isn't mailing out packets with tickets to every grad." 

To me, this is actually a good idea. Want people to invest in you? Invest in them? New grads should receive 2 season home opener tix. 

We need a bigger stadium if every new graduate were to take advantage of an offer like this. Total enrollment figures for NT are right around 37,000. An underestimate on undergraduates enrolled would be something like 31,500 (about 85%). If 25% of that 31k graduate every year, we'd need about 14,000 tickets (assuming every ticket is used).

[Ben Gooding]

31 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

We need a bigger stadium if every new graduate were to take advantage of an offer like this. Total enrollment figures for NT are right around 37,000. An underestimate on undergraduates enrolled would be something like 31,500 (about 85%). If 25% of that 31k graduate every year, we'd need about 14,000 tickets (assuming every ticket is used).

Good problem to have. 

And 14k of 31k isn't 25%. It'd be more like 8k. And no more than 1/3 would be used. So around 2400. It would create a problem that I'm sure the AD would love to figure out. 

Edited July 14, 2017 by Ben Gooding

[UNTFan23]

Just now, Ben Gooding said:

Good problem to have. 

Maybe? I don't want people getting free tickets in my section (207) where it's a minimum $500 MGC donation in order to purchase tickets.

[Ben Gooding]

12 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

Maybe? I don't want people getting free tickets in my section (207) where it's a minimum $500 MGC donation in order to purchase tickets.

Really, man. Is it going to upset you that much to give up a better atmosphere to watch the likes of Bethune Cookman and Texas Souhern? 

And an easy solution to your dilemma would be to have the tix in the GA wing zone section. Or back in the student section with some of their still undergrad friends. 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by Ben Gooding

[UNTFan23]

Just now, Ben Gooding said:

Really, man. Is it going to upset you that much to give up a better atmosphere to watch the likes of Bethune Cookman and Texas Souhern? 

And an easy solution to your dilemma would be to have the tix in the GA wing zone section. 

If the AD is going to give away tickets to my section, I either want in on said action or reduce the cost of my seats for the game.

[UNTLifer]

Giveaway tickets should be in the tail section or lower level end zone.  You don't give out premium seats.  Give away the least expensive, put a good product on the field and make them want to upgrade.  You want premium seats?  Pay what everyone else is paying to sit there.

[Ben Gooding]

4 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

If the AD is going to give away tickets to my section, I either want in on said action or reduce the cost of my seats for the game.

I'm going to come sit in your section vs Lamar and announce your GMG handle until I figure you out. Then sit in an empty seat just to ask you if you're having fun. 

But like I said, put them in GA or back in the student section for a game. 

[ADLER]

Evidence suggests North Texas does not care about attendance at this first game.

Denton's average temperature for September 2 is in the mid-nineties, and barring some unseen catastrophic event that would send Earth careening off it's axis sunset will not be until 7:52 that night.

Kickoff is set for 6:00. That is almost two sold hours for students and fans in the entire east side and wing seats to bake while staring into the glare of the sun. This sucks. Is the excitement of the Lamar rivalry really enough to offset this horrendous planning? Will the fans that attend have a favorable experience and desire to return for more games? Will the students decide that it's just more fun to stay outside the stadium partying on the hill?

I realize that fans in the cocktail level are only concerned with ice sculptures, bonbons, and the ability to get home early for beloved reruns of Murder She Wrote, but an adjustment really needs to be made for these September games to benefit all the other fans in the stadium. Other colleges schedule kickoffs at 7:30 or later, all high schools schedule kickoffs at 7:30, but North Texas is stuck in an attendance killing 6:00 kickoff rut.

Rick never learned this lesson and his deadbeat staff referred to it as insurmountable UNT fan apathy. Maybe Wren can figure it out.

[untjim1995]

7 hours ago, ADLER said:

Evidence suggests North Texas does not care about attendance at this first game.

Denton's average temperature for September 2 is in the mid-nineties, and barring some unseen catastrophic event that would send Earth careening off it's axis sunset will not be until 7:52 that night.

Kickoff is set for 6:00. That is almost two sold hours for students and fans in the entire east side and wing seats to bake while staring into the glare of the sun. This sucks. Is the excitement of the Lamar rivalry really enough to offset this horrendous planning? Will the fans that attend have a favorable experience and desire to return for more games? Will the students decide that it's just more fun to stay outside the stadium partying on the hill?

I realize that fans in the cocktail level are only concerned with ice sculptures, bonbons, and the ability to get home early for beloved reruns of Murder She Wrote, but an adjustment really needs to be made for these September games to benefit all the other fans in the stadium. Other colleges schedule kickoffs at 7:30 or later, all high schools schedule kickoffs at 7:30, but North Texas is stuck in an attendance killing 6:00 kickoff rut.

Rick never learned this lesson and his deadbeat staff referred to it as insurmountable UNT fan apathy. Maybe Wren can figure it out.

It's almost as if you're saying a terrible opponent and a bad start time that isn't from any other reason other than the AD's planning doesn't hurt the Apathy Monster...

In defense of the Green Brigade, baking for three straight hours before the sun goes down in 90+ degree weather would make me wear anything I could to just stay comfortable...I'm sure the Director of the Green Brigade would also much prefer a 7:30 kickoff for his kids, too.

[Ben Gooding]

I wonder if the 6pm kickoff time is set in stone. Maybe if there are enough complaints, we can get it pushed to 7 or 730. Doubtful, but at least worth taking 30 seconds to send WB a quick email. 

[GMG24]

Breaking news, a lot of other college football teams play outside.  A lot of other college football teams have no problem selling tickets.  You need to win, it's pretty simple.  Win and people come watch, don't win and here's plenty of other options on a Saturday to watch other football. UT has some gnarly kickoff times, Tx St, UH (where it's 1,000% humidity) it is what it is.  We have a solid group of 15-19,000 fans who will show up regardless.  To draw the extra crowd you must win and win and win, then they'll say oh UNT is winning I'll go check them out.  

 

However if TV or broadcast isn't telling us 6 pm nothing wrong with pushing it back and you may then draw a few more people. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by GMG24

[DeepGreen]

1 hour ago, GMG24 said:

However if TV or broadcast isn't telling us 6 pm nothing wrong with pushing it back and you may then draw a few more people. 

If "The Wren" can change the 6:00PM kickoff time, he should.  During my time at NTSU, September and early October kickoff at home games was at 7 or 7:30.  He really needs to cater to the fans early in the season so that they will have a "positive, comfortable game experience".

For crying out loud, listen to your customers.  Just change it Wren!

[THOR]

and don't forget the 530 starts we have this year...

[KRAM1]

1 hour ago, GMG24 said:

Breaking news, a lot of other college football teams play outside.  A lot of other college football teams have no problem selling tickets.  You need to win, it's pretty simple.  Win and people come watch, don't win and here's plenty of other options on a Saturday to watch other football. UT has some gnarly kickoff times, Tx St, UH (where it's 1,000% humidity) it is what it is.  We have a solid group of 15-19,000 fans who will show up regardless.  To draw the extra crowd you must win and win and win, then they'll say oh UNT is winning I'll go check them out.  

 

However if TV or broadcast isn't telling us 6 pm nothing wrong with pushing it back and you may then draw a few more people. 

I hear you, but get back with me on that "win and they will come" after you have been following and attending UNT games for close to 50 years as I have.  For you young whippersnappers, I give you our attendance after our winning season and HOD Bowl victory.  Did not increase one iota!  Nor did we sustain sell out crowds during the Fry years when we beat Tennessee on their own turf, beat Houston, etc., etc. One reason Fry went to Iowa was due to lack of support from both the fan base and the administration...told me that personally when we visited one day at the Denton bank where I was then working.  So, your "win and they will come" might well work for most other programs, but UNT and its fan base has shown over and over and over again that it us "different".  If you haven't noticed, Denton is a unique town and "different". Try being a long time UNT fan and a fiscal conservative and live in this town since 1965.  It can try one soul.  Hey, I love Denton and never want to move out of this town, but that doesn't mean it won't "try your soul" when it comes to UNT athletics and politics.

I don't really understand the part of your reply relating to game times. Don't think I said anything about game times.  But, I do call BS on any angst over a 6pm start. At that time of year it is pretty darn warm and can be pretty humid still at 7-7:30pm.  Weather just seems to be another one of those "tried and true long standing excuses" UNT folks have for not attending games.  I heard them all and the same ones keep popping up every single year...too hot, too cold, Halloween, Thursday night, too early, bad team coming to town, possibility of rain, we are losing, we can't go in and out of the stadium, Thanksgiving game, same time as Texas-OU, we don't sell beer...and now for some we do sell beer (see you can always find another excuse), I can't park close enough, they charge for parking....should I go on?  If you are a fan none of these are valid.  But, if you are a so-called fan of the Mean Green, every one of these become a "valid" excuse.

Anyway, let's chat again and say, 30 years, about this "win and they will come" idea.  I, in the deepest part of my soul, hope you are correct and times have changed enough to make your point valid. It will mean UNT is consistently winning and we are filling up Apoee.  That, Sir, is what I hope.

[Ben Gooding]

15 minutes ago, KRAM1 said:

I hear you, but get back with me on that "win and they will come" after you have been following and attending UNT games for close to 50 years as I have.  For you young whippersnappers, I give you our attendance after our winning season and HOD Bowl victory.  Did not increase one iota!  Nor did we sustain sell out crowds during the Fry years when we beat Tennessee on their own turf, beat Houston, etc., etc. One reason Fry went to Iowa was due to lack of support from both the fan base and the administration...told me that personally when we visited one day at the Denton bank where I was then working.  So, your "win and they will come" might well work for most other programs, but UNT and its fan base has shown over and over and over again that it us "different".  If you haven't noticed, Denton is a unique town and "different". Try being a long time UNT fan and a fiscal conservative and live in this town since 1965.  It can try one soul.  Hey, I love Denton and never want to move out of this town, but that doesn't mean it won't "try your soul" when it comes to UNT athletics and politics.

I don't really understand the part of your reply relating to game times. Don't think I said anything about game times.  But, I do call BS on any angst over a 6pm start. At that time of year it is pretty darn warm and can be pretty humid still at 7-7:30pm.  Weather just seems to be another one of those "tried and true long standing excuses" UNT folks have for not attending games.  I heard them all and the same ones keep popping up every single year...too hot, too cold, Halloween, Thursday night, too early, bad team coming to town, possibility of rain, we are losing, we can't go in and out of the stadium, Thanksgiving game, same time as Texas-OU, we don't sell beer...and now for some we do sell beer (see you can always find another excuse), I can't park close enough, they charge for parking....should I go on?  If you are a fan none of these are valid.  But, if you are a so-called fan of the Mean Green, every one of these become a "valid" excuse.

Anyway, let's chat again and say, 30 years, about this "win and they will come" idea.  I, in the deepest part of my soul, hope you are correct and times have changed enough to make your point valid. It will mean UNT is consistently winning and we are filling up Apoee.  That, Sir, is what I hope.

I went over with you why attendance didn't increase after the HOD in 2013. It's no secret. Attendance still stayed decent through the obvious unraveling of the program. People were never sold on McCarney and scheduling paired with in-season losing streaks will hurt attendance. Not just at UNT, but anywhere. Even after the embarrassing season opening loss at UT (a bad UT team), we had 25k in our season opener the next week. Then, the wheels came off the bus. A 4-loss team with 20+ contributing seniors paired with poor recruiting in the years leading up does not scream optimism. 4 losses is still 4 losses. Here, by the faithful supporters, it's looked at as a plateau. But for the casuals, 4 losses looks like improvement. Then when people start raising eyebrows with interest to their own alma mater, we crumble and then their attention goes back to their t-shirt team. 

But almost 20k average attendance in a 7 loss season is not atrocious, given we play in a 31k stadium. Also considering we played 2 or 3 more home games after a 4 game losing streak where we lost by 22.5 points per game. Certainly nothing to hang our hat on, but not WKU or FIU bad. This all but states that people will definitely come watch a winner. And if that doesn't, UNT set an average attendance program record during a 4 loss season, or 9 win season. 

[Salsa_Verde]

I believe UNT needs to broaden its fan base outside of Denton. It has a campus in Frisco and it is my hope that by establishing a broader regional fan base it may bring in more "attentive fans" but this has to come with sustained community outreach on the part of the university. I do like the idea of players being visible at charities or events in Denton, it goes a long way at establishing some kind of relationship within the community. Other ideas I would like to see implemented would be a concert after the game, a fireworks show for the kids, a partnership with the new convention center for discounted rates for alumni from out of town. I would also love to see a throwback night with the old flying worm helmets. Maybe even have themes for games (maybe too bush league) Just small ideas. I also believe that because Denton's high school teams have all been good at one time or another while UNT has had many losing seasons....support has not been able to take root like it should have IMHO. 

[Magic95Fan]

Alright, fine. Ill drive up for the Lamar game. Even though I said I would never come up for another FCS game, you guys have guilt tripped me into it. I hate all of you.

[untjim1995]

I think the thing most of us who have been around for over 20+ years can attest to is that expecting big fan support ever here isn't a good bet. We think averaging 20k for season attendance is good--and it is for us. But that's the rub--we have 200k alumni near here, plus 36k students, a town with about 100k in and around it, and a media market that has millions living within an hour of this place...and 20k is a damn good average for us. It's just a tough sell here, for all of the reasons we all know. At some point, you just have to decide to accept it and just follow the team, knowing full well that you'll be in the 2% of the UNT Family that gives a rip about our sports teams.

[GMG24]

1 hour ago, untjim1995 said:

I think the thing most of us who have been around for over 20+ years can attest to is that expecting big fan support ever here isn't a good bet. We think averaging 20k for season attendance is good--and it is for us. But that's the rub--we have 200k alumni near here, plus 36k students, a town with about 100k in and around it, and a media market that has millions living within an hour of this place...and 20k is a damn good average for us. It's just a tough sell here, for all of the reasons we all know. At some point, you just have to decide to accept it and just follow the team, knowing full well that you'll be in the 2% of the UNT Family that gives a rip about our sports teams.

How many winning seasons we had last 10 years? No student has a real reason other than getting drunk to attend.  I remember back during our run of the Sunbelt going to games and not being able to find a seat in the student section had to sit in the end zone.  Winning and not just one season of wins will get people out.