North Texas 2017 Offensive Line Assessment

[Harry]

Great article (other than the Mose error) as it looks at Rice, UTEP, UTSA and SMU olines as well. Must read!

Ranked #11 in State of Texas
11. North Texas

The Mean Green offensive line was a revolving door last season. Both in terms of personnel and results. North Texas allowed 93 tackles for loss and 43 sacks. The Mean Green lose their top two lineman in center Sam Rice and tackle Trey Keenan. This offseason guard Wylie Reinhardt retired due to injury. 

The three returners will be counted on to hold things down, starting with Jordan Murray the 6-9 man mountain at tackle. Murray isn't exactly mobile, but we harken back to another Air Raid lineman from the Mike Leach era at Tech, Brandon Carter, who must've weighed 340 and couldn't run a 10 yard shuttle without collapsing, but he served a purpose. Murray doesn't so much block as he does shield and create an impediment. Given his lack of mobility, his best position might be inside. 

Creighton Barr will slide into center. He started the first six games at center and played in nine games total. Senior T.J. Henson started nine games last season and should fill into one of the guard slots. Junior Chris Miles started three games at guard to round out the 2016 season. JC transfer Manase Mose brings a physical edge to the interior. He'll factor at guard or center.

The Mean Green staff would like to move Elex Woodworth back inside, but he may be needed at tackle.  Much of that will depend on whether Jalen Thomas or Chandler Anthony step up. Anthony sat out last season with a broken leg. Thomas appeared twice in 2016 after transferring from ASA College. 

Read more:  https://swcroundup.com/news/2017/6/26/position-rankings-offensive-line?utm_content=buffer1acf8&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

24 minutes ago, Harry said:

Great article (other than the Mose error) as it looks at Rice, UTEP, UTSA and SMU olines as well. Must read!

Ranked #11 in State of Texas
11. North Texas

The Mean Green offensive line was a revolving door last season. Both in terms of personnel and results. North Texas allowed 93 tackles for loss and 43 sacks. The Mean Green lose their top two lineman in center Sam Rice and tackle Trey Keenan. This offseason guard Wylie Reinhardt retired due to injury. 

The three returners will be counted on to hold things down, starting with Jordan Murray the 6-9 man mountain at tackle. Murray isn't exactly mobile, but we harken back to another Air Raid lineman from the Mike Leach era at Tech, Brandon Carter, who must've weighed 340 and couldn't run a 10 yard shuttle without collapsing, but he served a purpose. Murray doesn't so much block as he does shield and create an impediment. Given his lack of mobility, his best position might be inside. 

Creighton Barr will slide into center. He started the first six games at center and played in nine games total. Senior T.J. Henson started nine games last season and should fill into one of the guard slots. Junior Chris Miles started three games at guard to round out the 2016 season. JC transfer Manase Mose brings a physical edge to the interior. He'll factor at guard or center.

The Mean Green staff would like to move Elex Woodworth back inside, but he may be needed at tackle.  Much of that will depend on whether Jalen Thomas or Chandler Anthony step up. Anthony sat out last season with a broken leg. Thomas appeared twice in 2016 after transferring from ASA College. 

Read more:  https://swcroundup.com/news/2017/6/26/position-rankings-offensive-line?utm_content=buffer1acf8&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

This will change if we have a QB who gets the ball out quicker.  And, yes, I know that part of that is the WRs also getting free in their routes as well.

Hate to pin so much on the offensive line because they did deliver up Jeffrey Wilson's near 1,000 yard season (936...with injuries) where he got 5.5 yards per carry.  You can't block forever on a pass play. 

So, again, to me, more than the OL, it is incumbent upon Littrell/Harrell to find someone to pull the trigger quicker.

People throw Morris under the bus to quickly, but he had a higher QB rating than Fine, and threw for more TDs.  Had he remained the starter, he'd have thrown for more than 20. 

Littrell/Harrelll have to figure out QB still.  I think they make another error in judgement if they go into fall saying Fine has the position locked up. 

ADDENDUM:  Let me also throw in Willy Ivery's share of the numbers, although he is gone.  He ran for 489 yards and a 5.4 yard average in 2016.

So, combined, our top two back, Wilson and Ivery in 2016:
259 rushes
1,425 yards
5.5 yards per carry
20 rushing TDs

So, I think it's time to quit defaulting into this "bad offensive line" theory.  Looks like on designed run plays to the backs, the OL did a pretty damn good job in 2016. 

The "revolving door" notwithstanding, Brad Davis had his guys ready.  Davis wasn't also coaching the QBs and WRs, okay?

This isn't directed personally to you, Harry.  I just get tired of an OL that did a great job in the run game getting constantly thrown under the bus in the pass game.  It's not right. 

If your top two RBs put up those number behind a "revolving door," then I'd say the "revolving door" overachieved.

Edited June 30, 2017 by MeanGreenMailbox
Willy Ivery's 2016 performance added to the discussion

[Caw Caw]

36 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

This will change if we have a QB who gets the ball out quicker.  And, yes, I know that part of that is the WRs also getting free in their routes as well.

Hate to pin so much on the offensive line because they did deliver up Jeffrey Wilson's near 1,000 yard season (936...with injuries) where he got 5.5 yards per carry.  You can't block forever on a pass play. 

So, again, to me, more than the OL, it is incumbent upon Littrell/Harrell to find someone to pull the trigger quicker.

People throw Morris under the bus to quickly, but he had a higher QB rating than Fine, and threw for more TDs.  Had he remained the starter, he'd have thrown for more than 20. 

Littrell/Harrelll have to figure out QB still.  I think they make another error in judgement if they go into fall saying Fine has the position locked up. 

ADDENDUM:  Let me also throw in Willy Ivery's share of the numbers, although he is gone.  He ran for 489 yards and a 5.4 yard average in 2016.

So, combined, our top two back, Wilson and Ivery in 2016:
259 rushes
1,425 yards
5.5 yards per carry
20 rushing TDs

So, I think it's time to quit defaulting into this "bad offensive line" theory.  Looks like on designed run plays to the backs, the OL did a pretty damn good job in 2016. 

The "revolving door" notwithstanding, Brad Davis had his guys ready.  Davis wasn't also coaching the QBs and WRs, okay?

This isn't directed personally to you, Harry.  I just get tired of an OL that did a great job in the run game getting constantly thrown under the bus in the pass game.  It's not right. 

If your top two RBs put up those number behind a "revolving door," then I'd say the "revolving door" overachieved.

"When OLine is run blocking, they're the ones taking the initiative. They know who they're going to block, they know (usually) which hole they're creating for the RB, and they're driving forward.

When the OLine is pass blocking, they are in somewhat of a read and react mode, and it's more a game of instinct, agility, and thinking quickly."

This is a rundown of why I disagree with you. It's someone else's words but I think it represents my opinion. We were a good running blocking team, but we choose the point of attack, we choose the lanes, there isn't time for the defense to complicate it. We ranked 109 in rushing offense in CFB. It doesn't exactly remove the sting of being second to last in pass protection...

Edit: 121 of 128 in pass protection tied with UTSA to the tune of 293 yards on 48 sacks. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by Caw Caw

[Aldo]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I just get tired of an OL that did a great job in the run game getting constantly thrown under the bus in the pass game.  It's not right. 

Not trying to criticize one player, but point out an example and giving more of a football critique: Watch Jordan Murray pass blocking vs Bethune Cookman to get a sense of poor pass blocking. He had a very hard time getting off the blocks and pedaling back while as a tackle. Run blocking, he's a Mack truck. That's why we saw so much movement throughout the season, including injuries to others. 

[Ben Gooding]

Jordan Murray must play guard. He can't be a tackle. Too flat footed, and too tall. 

And Fine was his own demise in many of his sacks. With that said, run blocking and pass pro is nothing a like except the title of OL. Pass pro you're reacting, in run block you're attacking. Though I do agre with his overall post. QB can't take so many sacks. We have to get a guy out there that is a 2 sec or under release guy, especially in this O. 

[Wag Tag]

I have  mentioned this before, but we don't get some slot play it really limits options. Quick outs, slants, hooks and so on can help get rid of the ball quickly. If the o-line can just be average then the skill guys can take over.GMG

[Harry]

I think people need to stand down a bit on the Jordan Murray criticisms.  Could he improve in certain aspects?  sure.  He also has been extremely durable and played in lot of games for us.  Still has a lot more to play.  Garnering honorable mention all conference accolades as a sophomore is no small feat.  Guy didn't redshirt and hplayed in 5 games as a true frosh as we fed him to the wolves.  Started 10 and played in 12 last year.  He has exceeded my expectations by quite a bit.  Still has his best ball ahead of him in the next 2 seasons.

[All About UNT]

2 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

Jordan Murray must play guard. He can't be a tackle. Too flat footed, and too tall. 

And Fine was his own demise in many of his sacks. With that said, run blocking and pass pro is nothing a like except the title of OL. Pass pro you're reacting, in run block you're attacking. Though I do agre with his overall post. QB can't take so many sacks. We have to get a guy out there that is a 2 sec or under release guy, especially in this O. 

you will notice that in that games Morris played in that he wasn't sacked near as much as Fine was.  

[Ben Gooding]

4 minutes ago, All About UNT said:

you will notice that in that games Morris played in that he wasn't sacked near as much as Fine was.  

For sure.

[AustinFromUNT]

Speaking of Murray

[BTG_Fan1]

Jenks is going to have a big year if healthy. 

[untjim1995]

8 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

This will change if we have a QB who gets the ball out quicker.  And, yes, I know that part of that is the WRs also getting free in their routes as well.

Hate to pin so much on the offensive line because they did deliver up Jeffrey Wilson's near 1,000 yard season (936...with injuries) where he got 5.5 yards per carry.  You can't block forever on a pass play. 

So, again, to me, more than the OL, it is incumbent upon Littrell/Harrell to find someone to pull the trigger quicker.

People throw Morris under the bus to quickly, but he had a higher QB rating than Fine, and threw for more TDs.  Had he remained the starter, he'd have thrown for more than 20. 

Littrell/Harrelll have to figure out QB still.  I think they make another error in judgement if they go into fall saying Fine has the position locked up. 

ADDENDUM:  Let me also throw in Willy Ivery's share of the numbers, although he is gone.  He ran for 489 yards and a 5.4 yard average in 2016.

So, combined, our top two back, Wilson and Ivery in 2016:
259 rushes
1,425 yards
5.5 yards per carry
20 rushing TDs

So, I think it's time to quit defaulting into this "bad offensive line" theory.  Looks like on designed run plays to the backs, the OL did a pretty damn good job in 2016. 

The "revolving door" notwithstanding, Brad Davis had his guys ready.  Davis wasn't also coaching the QBs and WRs, okay?

This isn't directed personally to you, Harry.  I just get tired of an OL that did a great job in the run game getting constantly thrown under the bus in the pass game.  It's not right. 

If your top two RBs put up those number behind a "revolving door," then I'd say the "revolving door" overachieved.

To me, the offensive struggles from a year ago, has so much to do with having a team built for three yards and a cloud of dust and having them learn the spread. Harrell said last year in two-a-days that the guys were having trouble grasping the offense. It's a roster still full of round pegs and square holes, but I think this year will show more improvement, especially at QB and at WR. The OLine is what it is, but I think the passing game will be better.

[Ben Gooding]

1 hour ago, untjim1995 said:

To me, the offensive struggles from a year ago, has so much to do with having a team built for three yards and a cloud of dust and having them learn the spread. Harrell said last year in two-a-days that the guys were having trouble grasping the offense. It's a roster still full of round pegs and square holes, but I think this year will show more improvement, especially at QB and at WR. The OLine is what it is, but I think the passing game will be better.

OL is the biggest obstacle to overcome. WR and QB need to be better, and that has nothing to do with what they were recruited to or for. If anything, I can buy into the argument of the offense making strides due to the OL getting more comfortable in their new assignments. 

[RBP79]

I would hope Morris had a higher QB rating since he had 4 more years of college FB experience. Fine should show improvement this year. If not next man up. I'm certain there's some great FB qualities in Fine. There were many Oklahoma HS players who would of liked to of been named Oklahoma player of the year just once, much less twice.

[GrandGreen]

I would wager that NT has more offensive linemen on scholarship than any time in history.  Doesn't mean that any of them are good, but obviously the coaching staff thinks it is a big problem area.  

I believe the ol will be significantly improved, as both the numbers and experience with the Littrell system should be much improved. 

[southsideguy]

The qb gets the blame or the glory in football.  Remember Fine was a true freshman last year.  I think this year he will improve greatly.  Another thing I notice our defense was set for the spread offense.  That is why we struggled against UTSA and UTEP.  They both run a power offense.  With English I hope we improve on stopping the run and getting pressure on the other teams qb.  I guess what I am saying if our offense scores more than the other teams offense we should win (joke).

Edited July 2, 2017 by southsideguy

[Harry]

20 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

I would wager that NT has more offensive linemen on scholarship than any time in history.  Doesn't mean that any of them are good, but obviously the coaching staff thinks it is a big problem area.  

I believe the ol will be significantly improved, as both the numbers and experience with the Littrell system should be much improved. 

A high level o-line can be developed at the C-USA level as UTEP has proven out recently.  We had a good thing going with Coach Davis until he was lured away by Coach Butterteeth.

numbers don't mean a damn thing if you don't have quality.

the biggest challenge is tackles.  Big tall long armed nasty dudes who have good wheels are in short supply.  So we have to try and develop them and that is difficult to do and may explain the increased numbers at this position.

[KRAM1]

I believe we will see improve OL play this season.

[GMG24]

19 hours ago, Harry said:

I think people need to stand down a bit on the Jordan Murray criticisms.  Could he improve in certain aspects?  sure.  He also has been extremely durable and played in lot of games for us.  Still has a lot more to play.  Garnering honorable mention all conference accolades as a sophomore is no small feat.  Guy didn't redshirt and hplayed in 5 games as a true frosh as we fed him to the wolves.  Started 10 and played in 12 last year.  He has exceeded my expectations by quite a bit.  Still has his best ball ahead of him in the next 2 seasons.

He also didn't play football from MS to his Senior year I believe. 

[GrandGreen]

20 hours ago, Harry said:

I think people need to stand down a bit on the Jordan Murray criticisms.  Could he improve in certain aspects?  sure.  He also has been extremely durable and played in lot of games for us.  Still has a lot more to play.  Garnering honorable mention all conference accolades as a sophomore is no small feat.  Guy didn't redshirt and hplayed in 5 games as a true frosh as we fed him to the wolves.  Started 10 and played in 12 last year.  He has exceeded my expectations by quite a bit.  Still has his best ball ahead of him in the next 2 seasons.

He also because of his size is a big target for other teams.   I have noticed an inordinate number of late hits and opponents taking great joy in taking him down.   He has noted was one of the few players recognized at all on the all conference teams.   I look for him to continue to improve.

[BTG_Fan1]

2 hours ago, GMG24 said:

He also didn't play football from MS to his Senior year I believe. 

If this is true, then he wasn't given a real fair chance without a RS year.

[Harry]

7 hours ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

If this is true, then he wasn't given a real fair chance without a RS year.

You gotta go with the best guys you have.  Blame Mac and piss poor recruiting and roster management for that one.

[BTG_Fan1]

3 hours ago, Harry said:

You gotta go with the best guys you have.  Blame Mac and piss poor recruiting and roster management for that one.

That is true but again, finding kids for the scheme and developing them is critical. If there is depth at a position or a the kid is needing to develop more, you should RS them. Playing Murray and letting him be thrown into the fire (yes) helps him develop but it makes him and other players develop wrong/ improper tendencies. 

That is why we have said to RS the kids. I'd like to see them RS nearly everyone from our most recent class. Not because of class rank but because of the speed of the game, the schemes and just learning the fundamentals. Heck going from HS to coach is a challenge to some kids, adding in practice, workouts, etc it's a big jump. 

For example, RS Pearson and don't even dress him. SL and GH need and should play Fine, Quinn, Izzy, O'Hara and even Cason if needed this year to at the very least to determine what they have and who can/ can't play at QB if this season goes down hill. Let Pearson get another full year in system. Yes it is similar to his HS offense, but with him RS it should get him to the point he is hungry to be on the field and has nearly 2 years in this offense before taken a snap. Make it so he can read defenses and knows the offense blindfolded. Rushing a kid doesn't work at times and we saw Fine not make any progress or even regress. 

This staff doesn't need to do what is best for year 1 or this year, do what's best long term. UNT just recently started looking Long-term under SL. The thing hurting us now though is the lack of roster depth. Sorry for the rant/long story. 

[Cerebus]

On 7/1/2017 at 0:03 PM, GMG24 said:

He also didn't play football from MS to his Senior year I believe. 

[GrayEagle]

I am a firm advocate of putting your best talent on the field every year.  Only if some of your best talent is not physically ready should they be considered for red-shirting.  The mental aspect will improve as each recruit understands that he has a possibility of seeing the field in some capacity that year.  Many recruits are sold due to a promise to be able to see the field early.  That should not be taken from them.  

I further believe that our talent will improve each year in the future.  So make use of your best talent each year.