Recruiting Negative Thoughts

[GrandGreen]

I will put this in a separate thread, not to offend those that believe linking a comment about recruiting shortfalls with a recruits' name is mentioned.  It is also labeled so those that are tired of recruiting criticism can stay away.  

Current Status

Here is where NT currently stands in CUSA.   Based on average recruiter ratings, NT is ahead of two schools: UAB and ODU.  NT has one 3 star recruit.   The CUSA leaders currently are La Tech with 7, Rice 5 and UTSA 4.  NT is going to have another small class due to the number of blue shirts counting for this year's recruiting.   I do not see any commit to NT that had another FB division offer.   Leblanc committed early and to be fair will get other offers. 

Do Rankings matter

This will be a topic as long as coaches and AD's of poor recruiting teams continue to downplay the rankings.

Everyone should know that recruiting services miss all the time, but still overall the probability of success can be easily demonstrated based on these rankings. 

Look at NT.  NT in all their fb division experience has had three brief eras of football success.  Due to NT's very early acceptance of Afro-American athletes, the sixties' teams were outstanding as the SWC and other regional conferences were very slow at admitting Afro-American athletes.   Fry could and did recruit well against other Texas schools, so his mid-seventies teams were outstanding in NT history.   The other era, was DD's run in the early Belt which was build on one fine outstanding recruiting class.  

Other then those years, McCarney had one good year by a very experienced team with a few relatively high rated players leading the way. 

Does NT have inherent recruiting disadvantages

A lot of fans are buying into this argument that NT, because of a losing history, culture or some other intangible rationale, is just not a place that players with other options want to play for.

Losing no doubt hurts recruiting, however recruits have short memories and that can be turned around quickly.  Too many losing programs have quickly turned it around with the right hire and increased resources.  

No one should expect NT to win recruiting battles with most P5's, not going to happen.  However, I see no reason for example; that NT should not be more than competitive with regional CUSA teams.    Neither Rice, UTEP, USM, UTSA or La Tech have overall competition recruiting advantages over NT.   Sure each university has advantages and disadvantages, but NT should not be consistently losing recruiting battles to these schools. 

Can NT turn it around with sub-par recruiting

I think it is possible, although NT history would say no.    We saw Littrell win five last year, and it is certainly very possible that NT can win more as Littrell's program is built.  Coaching and scheme can offset talent shortfalls, but whether it can be done consistently is questionable.  

 

Edited June 19, 2017 by GrandGreen

[AustinFromUNT]

1 minute ago, GrandGreen said:

I will put this in a separate thread, not to offend those that believe linking a comment about recruiting shortfalls with a recruits' name is mentioned.  It is also labeled so those that are tired of recruiting criticism can stay away.  

Current Status

Here is where NT currently stands in CUSA.   Based on average recruiter ratings, NT is ahead of two schools: UAB and ODU.  NT has one 3 star recruit.   The CUSA leaders currently are La Tech with 7, Rice 5 and UTSA 4.  NT is going to have another small class due to the number of blue shirts counting for this year's recruiting.   I do not see any commit to NT that had another FB division offer.   Leblanc committed early and to be fair will get other offers. 

Do Rankings MatterI

Also, Kason hasn't been rated yet. When a player is rated NA the default for the average is .7000. I think he will be rated higher than that personally. Which, will then raise our average recruit ranking. I think we could definitely improve recruiting though. I think that if this class underwhelms, and we have some more coaches picked off, SL would (should) bring in some known recruiter who actually want to work here. Again, this depends on us having a good season on the field.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

4 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

I will put this in a separate thread, not to offend those that believe linking a comment about recruiting shortfalls with a recruits' name is mentioned.  It is also labeled so those that are tired of recruiting criticism can stay away.  

Current Status

Here is where NT currently stands in CUSA.   Based on average recruiter ratings, NT is ahead of two schools: UAB and ODU.  NT has one 3 star recruit.   The CUSA leaders currently are La Tech with 7, Rice 5 and UTSA 4.  NT is going to have another small class due to the number of blue shirts counting for this year's recruiting.   I do not see any commit to NT that had another FB division offer.   Leblanc committed early and to be fair will get other offers. 

Do Rankings matter

This will be a topic as long as coaches and AD's of poor recruiting teams continue to downplay the rankings.

Everyone should know that recruiting services miss all the time, but still overall the probability of success can be easily demonstrated based on these rankings. 

Look at NT.  NT in all their fb division experience has had three brief eras of football success.  Due to NT's very early acceptance of Afro-American athletes, the sixties' teams were outstanding as the SWC and other regional conferences were very slow at admitting Afro-American athletes.   Fry could and did recruit well against other Texas schools, so his mid-seventies teams were outstanding in NT history.   The other era, was DD's run in the early Belt which was build on one fine outstanding recruiting class.  

Other then those years, McCarney had one good year by a very experienced team with a few relatively high rated players leading the way. 

Does NT have inherent recruiting disadvantages

A lot of fans are buying into this argument that NT, because of a losing history, culture or some other intangible rationale, is just not a place that players with other options want to play for.

Losing no doubt hurts recruiting, however recruits have short memories and that can be turned around quickly.  Too many losing programs have quickly turned it around with the right hire and increased resources.  

No one should expect NT to win recruiting battles with most P5's, not going to happen.  However, I see no reason for example; that NT should not be more than competitive with regional CUSA teams.    Neither Rice, UTEP, USM, UTSA or La Tech have overall competition recruiting advantages over NT.   Sure each university has advantages and disadvantages, but NT should not be consistently losing recruiting battles to these schools. 

Can NT turn it around with sub-par recruiting

I think it is possible, although NT history would say no.    We saw Littrell win five last year, and it is certainly very possible that NT can win more as Littrell's program is built.  Coaching and scheme can offset talent shortfalls, but whether it can be done consistently is questionable.  

 

Since 1995 call up to big league we're four winning seasons and 22 losing seasons.  So...

...coaching and scheming seems to be more about wishing and dreaming.  There is nothing different about our spread than the other 100 schools running some form of spread.  It's 2017, not 1997; so no defensive coordinator is surprised to see it anymore.  

Throw into the mix that the offensive coordinator and WR coach hired weren't very experienced in the first place, and we're that much more not really starting off at the same level as everyone.  

But, we are paying more in salaries now for the whole ball of wax; so, we've got that going for us.  Which is nice.

[GMG24]

8 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

I will put this in a separate thread, not to offend those that believe linking a comment about recruiting shortfalls with a recruits' name is mentioned.  It is also labeled so those that are tired of recruiting criticism can stay away.  

Current Status

Here is where NT currently stands in CUSA.   Based on average recruiter ratings, NT is ahead of two schools: UAB and ODU.  NT has one 3 star recruit.   The CUSA leaders currently are La Tech with 7, Rice 5 and UTSA 4.  NT is going to have another small class due to the number of blue shirts counting for this year's recruiting.   I do not see any commit to NT that had another FB division offer.   Leblanc committed early and to be fair will get other offers. 

Do Rankings matter

This will be a topic as long as coaches and AD's of poor recruiting teams continue to downplay the rankings.

Everyone should know that recruiting services miss all the time, but still overall the probability of success can be easily demonstrated based on these rankings. 

Look at NT.  NT in all their fb division experience has had three brief eras of football success.  Due to NT's very early acceptance of Afro-American athletes, the sixties' teams were outstanding as the SWC and other regional conferences were very slow at admitting Afro-American athletes.   Fry could and did recruit well against other Texas schools, so his mid-seventies teams were outstanding in NT history.   The other era, was DD's run in the early Belt which was build on one fine outstanding recruiting class.  

Other then those years, McCarney had one good year by a very experienced team with a few relatively high rated players leading the way. 

Does NT have inherent recruiting disadvantages

A lot of fans are buying into this argument that NT, because of a losing history, culture or some other intangible rationale, is just not a place that players with other options want to play for.

Losing no doubt hurts recruiting, however recruits have short memories and that can be turned around quickly.  Too many losing programs have quickly turned it around with the right hire and increased resources.  

No one should expect NT to win recruiting battles with most P5's, not going to happen.  However, I see no reason for example; that NT should not be more than competitive with regional CUSA teams.    Neither Rice, UTEP, USM, UTSA or La Tech have overall competition recruiting advantages over NT.   Sure each university has advantages and disadvantages, but NT should not be consistently losing recruiting battles to these schools. 

Can NT turn it around with sub-par recruiting

I think it is possible, although NT history would say no.    We saw Littrell win five last year, and it is certainly very possible that NT can win more as Littrell's program is built.  Coaching and scheme can offset talent shortfalls, but whether it can be done consistently is questionable.  

 

Being around HS kids and players from other schools, whether anyone wants to acknowledge it or not, UNT's history of losing has many of them having us as a second choice.  Kids know what they've seen recently.  Who have been the big G5 winners?  Houston is top of the board, thus the reason you'll see us consistently losing battles to them (IMO it'll keep happening until we are winning 8-10 games a year).  

[GrandGreen]

38 minutes ago, GMG24 said:

Being around HS kids and players from other schools, whether anyone wants to acknowledge it or not, UNT's history of losing has many of them having us as a second choice.  Kids know what they've seen recently.  Who have been the big G5 winners?  Houston is top of the board, thus the reason you'll see us consistently losing battles to them (IMO it'll keep happening until we are winning 8-10 games a year).  

Losing recruits to Houston at this point is to be expected, they are at the top of the G5's.   Losing recruits to La Tech, UTSA, Rice and the like should not be.  

[GMG24]

1 minute ago, GrandGreen said:

Losing recruits to Houston at this point is to be expected, they are at the top of the G5's.   Losing recruits to La Tech, UTSA, Rice and the like should not be.  

La Tech has a lot to sell.  I agree on Rice/UTSA however with Rice recently upgraded facilities apparently they're very cool.  

 

*Im not saying I think facilities are end all be all, but they sure help.  We need the IPF done and we need wins and things should change quickly. 

[BTG_Fan1]

1 hour ago, GrandGreen said:

Losing recruits to Houston at this point is to be expected, they are at the top of the G5's.   Losing recruits to La Tech, UTSA, Rice and the like should not be.  

LAT is one of the better G5

[GrandGreen]

10 minutes ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

LAT is one of the better G5

 

1 hour ago, GMG24 said:

La Tech has a lot to sell.  I agree on Rice/UTSA however with Rice recently upgraded facilities apparently they're very cool.  

 

*Im not saying I think facilities are end all be all, but they sure help.  We need the IPF done and we need wins and things should change quickly. 

Yes, there is no way that NT should be expected to compete with the mighty bulldogs.  

[UNTLifer]

3 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

 

Yes, there is no way that NT should be expected to compete with the mighty bulldogs.  

How many QB's has La Tech sent to the NFL compared to us?  Receivers?  Etc...?

[GrandGreen]

33 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

How many QB's has La Tech sent to the NFL compared to us?  Receivers?  Etc...?

Have no idea, and frankly don't care.   

[techdawg88]

7 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Have no idea, and frankly don't care.   

recruits care

[BTG_Fan1]

18 minutes ago, techdawg88 said:

recruits care

A lot of people here don't seem to understand that for some reason. 

[Cr1028]

13 hours ago, GMG24 said:

La Tech has a lot to sell.  I agree on Rice/UTSA however with Rice recently upgraded facilities apparently they're very cool.  

 

*Im not saying I think facilities are end all be all, but they sure help.  We need the IPF done and we need wins and things should change quickly. 

Don't forget they also get a degree with Rice printed on it. That certainly helps for the players that can get in.

8 hours ago, techdawg88 said:

recruits care

[Aldo]

12 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

Yes, there is no way that NT should be expected to compete with the mighty bulldogs.  

You're right. We should expect to compete with any G5, because G5. But it's certainly not the case until we actually do. 

And it sucks. Hard.

[Cr1028]

Here's another question. Are we sabotaging ourselves to some degree? Obviously some recruits parents and recruits themselves have been to this board because they registered and posted. Are we shooting ourselves in the foot by ragging on this recruiting class before it has signed?  17 year old football stars have a tendency to have a high degree of self-worth. When we say things like, "I don't like this recruit because he doesn't have any FBS offer but ours" or "this recruit isn't any good because no other coach thought he was good enough to be offered", don't you think as soon as a comparable or"better" offer comes along that recruit will jump to the new scholarship because the UNT fan base never really wanted me anyway? Remember we are not talking about life-experienced middle aged men here. We are talking about 17 year olds who have been told they are the greatest their entire life.

Just a question. What say you? Is this even plausible? Is this the old, "when you expect to fail, you will be correct every time" type of deal?

Edited June 20, 2017 by Cr1028

[Ben Gooding]

Sure we are. But I don't think it will hurt or change anything. The last 16 or 17 commits/signees never did or haven't yet end up with another FBS offer. 

We always talk chicken/egg analogy when we talk about recruiting - winning. Some think we have to recruit better to win while others think we have to win to recruit better. Neither option is wrong as both would improve the program. But recruiting better to win is more efficient and a quicker solution as opposed to winning to recruit better. At UNT, the writing is on the wall of that we're gong to have to win to recruit better. Though this is not an excuse of the poor recruiting as we should still be able to snag guys here and there. And that is where the criticism lies, we're not really even able to do that. The amount of blueshirts and 0 offer guys is unprecedented and starting to be worse than McCarney recruiting. And that's the frustrating part, I don't see us being able to win to improve recruiting with what we have been hauling. And when/if that happens, then what?  

[Cr1028]

But @Ben Gooding, aren't we still 9 months from signing day? If the kids follow my scenario and leave at the first offer that isn't ours because they feel we've "thrown shade" their way, won't we be stuck scrambling for more zero offer guys, thus perpetuating what we were trying to avoid?

[UNTLifer]

35 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

Sure we are. But I don't think it will hurt or change anything. The last 16 or 17 commits/signees never did or haven't yet end up with another FBS offer. 

  

Again, not an accurate statement.

[GrandGreen]

9 hours ago, techdawg88 said:

recruits care

 

8 hours ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

A lot of people here don't seem to understand that for some reason. 

Most NT fans including me are very beware and in fact envious of the success of La Tech in athletics.   However, La Tech is not a team that should be dominating NT in recruiting.  There is a lot of difference between the resource level of Houston and any CUSA team.  With their recent success and the resources, UH has got the upper hand on just about any G5 program.  

Despite the apparent belief of some fans, La Tech should not have any great advantage over NT in recruiting.   Yes, they have won a lot more and send more players to the pros, a statement almost any university can make when comparing themselves to NT.  

Frankly, if NT can't challenge a program like La Tech which NT has some significant advantages over, than it may be time to just abandon sports at NT.  A ridiculous statement maybe, but no more so than believing that just about any school in the nation has inherent recruiting advantages over NT.  

[UNTLifer]

9 hours ago, techdawg88 said:

recruits care

They also care about  your history of winning and losing.  We are on the right track, but it will take a little time.  Win, build the IPF, win, build the soccer/track venue, win, continue to upgrade the existing facilities and win and they will come around.

I agree that we should be able to compete with La Tech and UNT does hold a number of advantages over them, but these are 17-18 year old kids choosing a school with the input of parents, that many think this is the stepping stone for their child to go to the NFL, who don't always look at the entire picture.

My message to recruits is be the one to take the challenge of turning this program around and putting it where it deserves to be alongside Houston as a top tier G5.  Many of you don't like Littrell's recruiting because he is a straight shooter, but I believe he is building this program the right way which will take time.  Going from 1-11 to 5-8 in year one looks good to me and I expect us to improve on 5-8 this year.

Edited June 20, 2017 by UNTLifer

[Cr1028]

18 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Despite the apparent belief of some fans, La Tech should not have any great advantage over NT in recruiting.   Yes, they have won a lot more and send more players to the pros, a statement almost any university can make when comparing themselves to NT.  

What do you think the best recruits are looking for in a college football team to play for??

18 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Frankly, if NT can't challenge a program like La Tech which NT has some significant advantages over, than it may be time to just abandon sports at NT.  A ridiculous statement maybe, but no more so than believing that just about any school in the nation has inherent recruiting advantages over NT.  

What advantages are these? Are they advantages to the recruits themselves? Or perceived advantages of our coaching staff because we are located in Texas?

[BillySee58]

10 hours ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

A lot of people here don't seem to understand that for some reason. 

It matters, but your posts seem to indicate that NFL players drafted and history are the end all, be all factors for recruits. Then why did Tee Goree choose us over Colorado, La Tech, and UTSA among others? Or why did Chris Miles choose us over La Tech and Houston? Why did Nate Brooks choose us over La Tech? I could string off a lot of names recruits we beat La Tech and UTSA out for during the Mccarney years.

This isn't some impossible matchup. Nor is UTSA just because they don't have a history of losing. Good recruiters can win these matchups. They have them. Evidence implies we don't. Good recruiters can sell kids on their program even if they have things going against them.

[Ben Gooding]

57 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Again, not an accurate statement.

The last 12 signees of the '17 class had no viable options in the football bowl subdivision. The current 5 commits of the '18 class have no viable options in the football bowl subdivision. 

Review - 12+5=17. 

[GrandGreen]

3 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

What do you think the best recruits are looking for in a college football team to play for??

What advantages are these? Are they advantages to the recruits themselves? Or perceived advantages of our coaching staff because we are located in Texas?

It is my belief the number one factor in an athlete's decision is conference affiliation.  Of course wrapped up in that is media coverage, national attention, achievement level judged by the team signed with and resource level.   That factor however, is obviously not pertinent to a discussion on recruiting against other CUSA members.  

The number one factor among conference schools and I don't think it is even that debatable is the ability of the coaching staff to recruit.  Another strong factor is recent success level.  Other factors such as location, resources, academics are all secondary to staff's recruiting ability and recent success.

Any half-way knowledgable fan can name positives and negatives of any program.   The key is in the selling not the product.  

What may be an advantage to one recruit maybe just the opposite  to another.   Here are a few advantages NT has IMO over La Tech.

Size of school: NT 37,299 to La Tech 12,371.  Again some may prefer smaller colleges but bigger means in this case much more educational options.

Denton versus Ruston location.   Again it depends on the individual recruit.  Denton in my view is very hard to beat, a smaller town feel in one of the major metropolitan areas in the nation.  Ruston is a  town of 22,000 that is 33 miles from Monroe; a town of 49.000 to the East, and Shreveport 69 miles to the East.  At NT, you are in one of the most attractive job markets in the nation.  

NT is a much more diverse campus than Ruston.  If I was a football recruit I would also note that NT is 53% female, while La Tech is 53% male.  Add in TWU, and it should be much easier to find a date in Denton than Ruston.

Facilities, I would give a substantial edge to NT.  It has been years since I was in Ruston, but I doubt they have closed the gap much. 

Resources, again no contest.   Based on 2014, NT's budget was third in the conference;  La Tech last. 

 

Edited June 20, 2017 by GrandGreen

[jtm0097]

Let's be honest. Ruston is essentially East Texas. Tons of pine trees and nothing to do.