DRC: A look back on the top five coaches in UNT history

[UNTLifer]

Plus, DD called us all MF'ers. That has to rate high in Vito's book. 

[oldguystudent]

More fun -- give us a bottom five.  And remember that Trilli didn't coach football. 

[GrandGreen]

11 hours ago, oldguystudent said:

More fun -- give us a bottom five.  And remember that Trilli didn't coach football. 

This is a much easier list to fill.  

[VideoEagle]

8 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

This is a much easier list to fill.  

Sort of, but how to rank them? Those of us around in '81 mostly think Bob Tyler was the worst coach in our history, but others would vote for Dodge. 

A few months back someone pointed out the SWC schools started all actively recruiting African-Americans in the late 60/early 70s. That certainly made Rust's recruiting a lot harder than Mitchel's had been before '67 when the SWC schools only took a very few.

[GrandGreen]

OK, worse football coaches 

1.  Bob Tyler  - Was a sleaze when he coached at Mississippi State, but was a name coach to NT and got the job.   Fired after one season, not sure exactly why; his team was bad, but that has never been an early firing cause for NT. 

2.  Todd Dodge -  Record of 6-37 states it all.  Good offensive mind, but arrogance of bringing in a staff of high school coaches doomed him.     

3.  Dennis Parker -  Another high school coach that wasn't as successful as Dodge at that level.   He did at least bring in a college staff.  One of NT more likable coaches, but never really had a chance.

4-5 tie

Dan McCarney had one good year, but turned out to be a much better talker than coach.  Based on return of investment was among NT's worst hires.

Darrell Dickey had much more success than anyone else on this list.   But a lot of that was offset by his constant bad mouthing of the program.  He had a great run despite an overall 42-64 record.  

Jerry Moore was not really as bad a coach as he was a hire.    He inherited a 10-2 with most players returning from Fry and turned them into mediocrity.   Fry had a team returning built on speed and deception.  NT hired a 3 yard and cloud of dust head coach to take over that team.   His record at NT was 11-11 before he was inexplicable hired away by Tech.  

 

[TheTastyGreek]

On 6/10/2017 at 4:18 PM, UNTLifer said:

Plus, DD called us all MF'ers. That has to rate high in Vito's book. 

Anyone else remember what he actually said, and the context in which he said it? 

[Huff]

GrandGreen posted a pretty impressive list.   I would slide Matt Simon in there in the place of Dickey.   Simon's attitude made Dickey's look absolutely sunny and bright.   His constant snide comments about coaching in "Denton, America" got really old.

[Ryan Munthe]

2 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

OK, worse football coaches 

1.  Bob Tyler  - Was a sleaze when he coached at Mississippi State, but was a name coach to NT and got the job.   Fired after one season, not sure exactly why; his team was bad, but that has never been an early firing cause for NT. 

2.  Todd Dodge -  Record of 6-37 states it all.  Good offensive mind, but arrogance of bringing in a staff of high school coaches doomed him.     

3.  Dennis Parker -  Another high school coach that wasn't as successful as Dodge at that level.   He did at least bring in a college staff.  One of NT more likable coaches, but never really had a chance.

4-5 tie

Dan McCarney had one good year, but turned out to be a much better talker than coach.  Based on return of investment was among NT's worst hires.

Darrell Dickey had much more success than anyone else on this list.   But a lot of that was offset by his constant bad mouthing of the program.  He had a great run despite an overall 42-64 record.  

Jerry Moore was not really as bad a coach as he was a hire.    He inherited a 10-2 with most players returning from Fry and turned them into mediocrity.   Fry had a team returning built on speed and deception.  NT hired a 3 yard and cloud of dust head coach to take over that team.   His record at NT was 11-11 before he was inexplicable hired away by Tech.  

 

Sorry.

Putting Mac or Dickey on "worst coach" list is asinine.

[GMG24]

1 minute ago, Ryan Munthe said:

Sorry.

Putting Mac or Dickey on "worst coach" list is asinine.

Why is putting Mac on that list asinine? Dude left us in scholarship hell because he was too lazy to recruit, too stubborn to quit pounding the vodka, and too senile to run a very easy social media site that allows you almost unlimited access to kids across the nation at NO COST.  Easy way to expand your brand, get kids excited about your program not just locally but nationally.  Mac's one bowl win to me does not justify leaving him off that list because of what took place the last two years he was here, along with the mis handling of scholarships. 

[SilverEagle]

2 hours ago, TheTastyGreek said:

Anyone else remember what he actually said, and the context in which he said it? 

I was there, but time and my compromised hearing (superior hearing in one ear, deaf in the other), might have put my perception of it in question. I don't remember that he called loyal NT fans M-F'rs. I remember that he seemed to be warning his team about false friends.......or maybe false fans. Anyway, in retrospect it sounded like he was doing his version of that O'Jays song...."The Back Stabbers".       Maybe he had RV and his minions in mind......or possibly the NT Daily sports staff.

 

[TheTastyGreek]

1 hour ago, SilverEagle said:

I was there, but time and my compromised hearing (superior hearing in one ear, deaf in the other), might have put my perception of it in question. I don't remember that he called loyal NT fans M-F'rs. I remember that he seemed to be warning his team about false friends.......or maybe false fans. Anyway, in retrospect it sounded like he was doing his version of that O'Jays song...."The Back Stabbers".       Maybe he had RV and his minions in mind......or possibly the NT Daily sports staff.

 

Based on the account that was transcribed at the time, and not disputed by any of the other people who were present at the "Division from within" pep talk... That's spot on. 

And, interestingly enough, the "M" part of the alleged blanket damning of our fans didn't pop up until well after. No one else at the time even claimed to have heard him say anything but the F'er part. But, like the rest of the story, the real fun everyone seems to have had is in the embellishment. 

[meanrob]

8 hours ago, Ryan Munthe said:

Sorry.

Putting Mac or Dickey on "worst coach" list is asinine.

I've followed the Mean Green since '93 and no coach left the program in worse shape or had a worst season than Mac. Nothing any coach has done was as bad as Portland State. He's not only Top 5 but at least Top 3. Since Parker he's the worst. 

[oldguystudent]

I've never even heard of Bob Tyler.  His wiki page shows he got pretty seriously smacked around at Mississippi St. by the NCAA for undisclosed violations.  

I came to UNT in the second year of the great Dodge debacle.  The tales that I've have regaled upon me regarding Dickey range from savior of the program to the devil incarnate.  There doesn't seem to be anybody holding middle ground on the guy.  I can't make a reasonable judgment because the opinions expressed are so wildly variable.  

This evolving Mac vs. Dodge debate is intriguing.  I was this close to getting my UNT football games attended record to .500 under Mac until whatever the hell happened happened.  Under Dodge, I had no such hope whatsoever.  I just expected the losses to pile up and pile up they did. 

By the time Portland St. came along, I had a macabre curiosity as to just how bad that game would get.  I was sitting next to some parents who were engaging in some odd form of gallows humor guffaws at the absurdity of the game.  Players were complete disengaged, and certain receivers were pulling ye olde timey Darrell Dickey tactics on Twitter lashing out of the dozens of fans remaining.  It was a glorious crashing and burning in a blaze of fire not seen since the Hindenburg. 

But..given that my only two points of data were Dodge and Mac, at least I got to see a winning season and a bowl win under Mac, and that one year was a really, really good time that had me more invested into a program that I had previously lost all interest in as wins and losses went.  

 

[VideoEagle]

11 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

Bob Tyler  - Was a sleaze when he coached at Mississippi State, but was a name coach to NT and got the job.   Fired after one season, not sure exactly why; his team was bad, but that has never been an early firing cause for NT. 

At the time I heard folks in the Mississippi State athletic department were phoning NT and telling anyone who'd listen NOT to hire the guy. But some seemed to think he was the next Hayden as he'd been fired by a school in a major conference. I was a senior (still!) at the time of the hire and heard several players talk about Tyler being more like Fry. But that meant will to do anything to win, not being a winner. Tyler had the unique distinction of getting the NCAA to sniff around a 2 win team over what were described as multiple potential infractions.

The one that came out is difficult to explain in the world of modern communications: Tyler let football players use his office phone to call Dallas and Fort Worth. Back before the AT&T break up, it was a long distance call - something like 50 cents a minute - to call anywhere south of Lewisville. A 30 minute call to your girlfriend was $15 at a time when Cokes were still just 25 cents. By the way, calling between Dallas and Fort Worth cost the same thing. But there was a thing call a "metro line" which let you call Dallas, Denton and Tarrant county. Students were NOT supposed to use the lines for personal calls but many of us had access to one someplace. Tyler openly let the football team use his and the NCAA flagged this as a benefit not available to other students. I'm told that wasn't his only violation, but it was one he refused to cut off even after the school told him to do so.

A friend in what was then the school of arts and sciences dean's office told me the NCAA said get rid of Tyler and the NCAA would go away. Around the same time, the NCAA announced the new retroactive 1A football requirements. The pro athletics people in the school had burned all of their political capital getting Tyler hired and his firing (and probably paying off part of a contract) combined with the new NCAA rules gave the anti-athletics crowd a LOT of ammunition. I heard President Vandiver stopped a push to drop football altogether with a promise to keep it at a much lower level. 

Another friend who was interning within the athletic department told the there was a "form that if we'd just filled it out we could stay 1A." @Arkstfan has since pointed out the waiver request form didn't actually prevent ANY schools from being forced down as the rules were retroactive. What we COULD have done was start upgrading both the stadium and the schedule sooner to qualify for 1A but we didn't. I really think some of the then pro-athletics people, in making the all out push for Bob Tyler, helped keep solidify NT at the 1AA level for years. 

 

EDIT - I left out a very important NOT above!

Edited June 12, 2017 by VideoEagle

[Ryan Munthe]

1 hour ago, meanrob said:

I've followed the Mean Green since '93 and no coach left the program in worse shape or had a worst season than Mac. Nothing any coach has done was as bad as Portland State. He's not only Top 5 but at least Top 3. Since Parker he's the worst. 

And yet we went 5-7 with Mac's squad, no?

[GrandGreen]

10 hours ago, Ryan Munthe said:

Sorry.

Putting Mac or Dickey on "worst coach" list is asinine.

Make your own list then.   I made my case why I selected the coaches I did.    I hesitated to even participate, because of posts like this.  

Present your views and tell me why for example that DD doesn't deserve to be on this list after frequently making comments like this is the worst job in the nation.  Yes, that is what a hc trying to sell a program to recruits should be on record stating.

 McCarney had more resources than anyone before and a relatively easy conference to play in.   He had one good year primarily because of Dodge's recruits.  I remember when he got here of the big deal he made of how few Dodge recruits had other offers.   He never came close to even equaling Dodge's recruiting.  

Yes, there is also a matter of records.  McCarney at 22-32 including a 9-4 year.  DD was 42-64.   

I wonder who you think these two coaches were better than.  Jerry Moore, Matt Simon or Corky Nelson.  Before you put Simon on that list, look at the resource level he had and the schedule he played.  McCarney would have never taken the job, and DD would have exploded.  

I have presented my asinine views, your turn to back up yours. 

1 hour ago, VideoEagle said:

At the time I heard folks in the Mississippi State athletic department were phoning NT and telling anyone who'd listen NOT to hire the guy. But some seemed to think he was the next Hayden as he'd been fired by a school in a major conference. I was a senior (still!) at the time of the hire and heard several players talk about Tyler being more like Fry. But that meant will to do anything to win, not being a winner. Tyler had the unique distinction of getting the NCAA to sniff around a 2 win team over what were described as multiple potential infractions.

The one that came out is difficult to explain in the world of modern communications: Tyler let football players use his office phone to call Dallas and Fort Worth. Back before the AT&T break up, it was a long distance call - something like 50 cents a minute - to call anywhere south of Lewisville. A 30 minute call to your girlfriend was $15 at a time when Cokes were still just 25 cents. By the way, calling between Dallas and Fort Worth cost the same thing. But there was a thing call a "metro line" which let you call Dallas, Denton and Tarrant county. Students were NOT supposed to use the lines for personal calls but many of us had access to one someplace. Tyler openly let the football team use his and the NCAA flagged this as a benefit not available to other students. I'm told that wasn't his only violation, but it was one he refused to cut off even after the school told him to do so.

A friend in what was then the school of arts and sciences dean's office told me the NCAA said get rid of Tyler and the NCAA would go away. Around the same time, the NCAA announced the new retroactive 1A football requirements. The pro athletics people in the school had burned all of their political capital getting Tyler hired and his firing (and probably paying off part of a contract) combined with the new NCAA rules gave the anti-athletics crowd a LOT of ammunition. I heard President Vandiver stopped a push to drop football altogether with a promise to keep it at a much lower level. 

Another friend who was interning within the athletic department told the there was a "form that if we'd just filled it out we could stay 1A." @Arkstfan has since pointed out the waiver request form didn't actually prevent ANY schools from being forced down as the rules were retroactive. What we COULD have done was start upgrading both the stadium and the schedule sooner to qualify for 1A but we didn't. I really think some of the then pro-athletics people, in making the all out push for Bob Tyler, helped keep solidify NT at the 1AA level for years. 

 

EDIT - I left out a very important NOT above!

Thanks, I had heard the telephone thing before, but had forgotten it.  Also that his firing probably kept the NCAA out of it.  He also signed some very questionable athletes which I think might have factored in.   He also went way over budget, a mortal sin at NT at the time.

The form to stay in 1a, I think is mostly NT folklore.  However, I think Hurley and the BOR were more than happy to let NT fall to 1aa.  Most teams that fought it found a way to stay in 1a, but NT didn't try.   

[meanrob]

2 hours ago, Ryan Munthe said:

And yet we went 5-7 with Mac's squad, no?

By that measurement I could say Mac was so horrible he couldn't win a game with 5-7 talent.  

[Cerebus]

2 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

Present your views and tell me why for example that DD doesn't deserve to be on this list after frequently making comments like this is the worst job in the nation. 

Well first off he never said that.  He several times called this one of the "toughest"  jobs, but he never called it one of the worst.  

Let's not forget that he was far, FAR ahead of the fanbase when it came to realizing the issues inside the AD.   I am 100% sure that was a large part why he considered this such a "tough" job.

 

10 hours ago, TheTastyGreek said:

Based on the account that was transcribed at the time, and not disputed by any of the other people who were present at the "Division from within" pep talk... That's spot on. 

And, interestingly enough, the "M" part of the alleged blanket damning of our fans didn't pop up until well after. No one else at the time even claimed to have heard him say anything but the F'er part. But, like the rest of the story, the real fun everyone seems to have had is in the embellishment. 

I was shooting that practice and was 20 ft from Dickey when he said it.  I think @SilverEagle's read on it was pretty good.  He was talking about everyone outside the football team (such as hangers on and "girlfriends") not being as trustworthy as your teammates and coaches.    

Again remember the relationship between the coaching staff and leadership at the time.  

[GrandGreen]

33 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

Well first off he never said that.  He several times called this one of the "toughest"  jobs, but he never called it one of the worst.  

Let's not forget that he was far, FAR ahead of the fanbase when it came to realizing the issues inside the AD.   I am 100% sure that was a large part why he considered this such a "tough" job.

 

I was shooting that practice and was 20 ft from Dickey when he said it.  I think @SilverEagle's read on it was pretty good.  He was talking about everyone outside the football team (such as hangers on and "girlfriends") not being as trustworthy as your teammates and coaches.    

Again remember the relationship between the coaching staff and leadership at the time.  

Actually, he said both.  Never is the wrong word to use in this context, as it would be impossible to know that.   

In light of the fall of RV, it is easy to point out how bad he was a decade or so later.   One of the reasons, I had my doubts about RV early on was his failure to put a muzzle on Dickey.   Dickey had an horrible oc schedule that he really didn't have the resources to compete with.  However,  NT was fully equipped to compete and in fact dominate the Belt. 

[VideoEagle]

3 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

Most teams that fought it found a way to stay in 1a, but NT didn't try.

From what I understand, no school that applied for a waiver was accepted. Arkansas State got the farthest and were eventually turned down. Someone - I think Cincinnati - threatened to sue the NCAA and were granted 1A status. But no one else threatened and no one else got to stay 1A. Again, @Arkstfan knows more of these details and I have just read/heard them second and third hand. 

I might have confused Vandiver and Hurley on who stopped the dropping of football altogether. But I understand it was close. 

[Cerebus]

57 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Actually, he said both.  Never is the wrong word to use in this context, as it would be impossible to know that.   

How about once?  

I was credentialed for the bowl year run, sat in on a many media interviews and post game conferences with Dickey.  I do not recall him ever saying this was one of the "worst" jobs, I do recall him saying it was one of the "toughest" many times.  

So again, dozens and dozens of times I head him not say it was one of the "worst." All that it will take to change my mind is one credible media source that says he said it was one of the "worst."   

 

ETA:  I do recall him saying that Fouts was one of the worst facilities, but I think it was off the record, and I would not disagree with him.

[untjim1995]

3 hours ago, Cerebus said:

How about once?  

I was credentialed for the bowl year run, sat in on a many media interviews and post game conferences with Dickey.  I do not recall him ever saying this was one of the "worst" jobs, I do recall him saying it was one of the "toughest" many times.  

So again, dozens and dozens of times I head him not say it was one of the "worst." All that it will take to change my mind is one credible media source that says he said it was one of the "worst."   

 

ETA:  I do recall him saying that Fouts was one of the worst facilities, but I think it was off the record, and I would not disagree with him.

Fouts was THE WORST--he could have said on the record or off the record, it didn't change its status as a toilet bowl of a stadium.

I think the part that frustrated most people about Darrell Dickey was that he just wasn't that inspiring. From pure give-up before bodybag games, from boring offensive strategy, and the Eeyore effect from comments like its the "toughest job in America--I know because I'm here EVERYDAY", they all just beat most people down. Yes, he killed SBC teams for the better part of 4 years, as well as beating Cincy in the NO Bowl and then crushing Baylor in front of a near-sellout at Fouts, but the media didn't care about that, nor did other ADs, who normally couldn't wait to hire a G5 coach who has just won a conference title, much less 4 in a row. He was a good coach when he had great defensive talent at the same time as a solid running game. If either of those were off kilter, then forget it--you got TCU Dickster, where we the fans in FW for our game against the Frogs were literally chanting for us to throw a pass instead of handoff after handoff after handoff leading to another punt in a game where our defense played its heart out and kept us in that game.

He was way better than Dennis Parker and Matt Simon at everything, better than Dodge at actual coaching (not PR), and about the same as DMac at coaching (not even close PR-wise). Not one of those guys should even be in same breath as Fry or Mitchell or Corky Nelson for coaching abilities exhibited at UNT. I suspect Rod Rust should be on their too. But no one in the last 30 years has really shown me that they are anything close to great--and I really believed DMac was going to be great here, but the last year and a half here was Dodge-esque in its futility and Dickey-esque in its giveup.

 

[SilverEagle]

On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 7:13 AM, VideoEagle said:

At the time I heard folks in the Mississippi State athletic department were phoning NT and telling anyone who'd listen NOT to hire the guy. But some seemed to think he was the next Hayden as he'd been fired by a school in a major conference. I was a senior (still!) at the time of the hire and heard several players talk about Tyler being more like Fry. But that meant will to do anything to win, not being a winner. Tyler had the unique distinction of getting the NCAA to sniff around a 2 win team over what were described as multiple potential infractions.

The one that came out is difficult to explain in the world of modern communications: Tyler let football players use his office phone to call Dallas and Fort Worth. Back before the AT&T break up, it was a long distance call - something like 50 cents a minute - to call anywhere south of Lewisville. A 30 minute call to your girlfriend was $15 at a time when Cokes were still just 25 cents. By the way, calling between Dallas and Fort Worth cost the same thing. But there was a thing call a "metro line" which let you call Dallas, Denton and Tarrant county. Students were NOT supposed to use the lines for personal calls but many of us had access to one someplace. Tyler openly let the football team use his and the NCAA flagged this as a benefit not available to other students. I'm told that wasn't his only violation, but it was one he refused to cut off even after the school told him to do so.

A friend in what was then the school of arts and sciences dean's office told me the NCAA said get rid of Tyler and the NCAA would go away. Around the same time, the NCAA announced the new retroactive 1A football requirements. The pro athletics people in the school had burned all of their political capital getting Tyler hired and his firing (and probably paying off part of a contract) combined with the new NCAA rules gave the anti-athletics crowd a LOT of ammunition. I heard President Vandiver stopped a push to drop football altogether with a promise to keep it at a much lower level. 

Another friend who was interning within the athletic department told the there was a "form that if we'd just filled it out we could stay 1A." @Arkstfan has since pointed out the waiver request form didn't actually prevent ANY schools from being forced down as the rules were retroactive. What we COULD have done was start upgrading both the stadium and the schedule sooner to qualify for 1A but we didn't. I really think some of the then pro-athletics people, in making the all out push for Bob Tyler, helped keep solidify NT at the 1AA level for years. 

 

EDIT - I left out a very important NOT above!

THIS is the issue that has bothered me more than anything through the years. You can make a list of our worst five (or whatever) coaches, but you must also make a list of the idiot administrators that hired them. They got multiple calls from Miss St. saying "don't hire this guy! and they hired him anyway? And guess who was one of the applicants besides Tyler? None other than Corky Nelson. And guess what? Corky Nelson had already coached here and KNEW EXACTLY WHAT THE CHALLENGES WERE IN COACHING HERE. By mid-season, Bob Tyler was looking around and wondering "what the hell is wrong with these people? That wouldn't have happened if Corky had been hired.

 

[VideoEagle]

1 hour ago, SilverEagle said:

make a list of the idiot administrators that hired them

I'm still amazed at the number of people who honestly believed Bob Tyler was going to be the next Hayden Fry. They based it solely on his having been a head coach who was fired from an SEC school. They ignored the fact he was fired over NCAA violations. Hayden had been fired by SMU because he had not turned them into a consistent winner after over a decade and the SMU people thought they'd given him enough time. A lot of the pro athletics people pushed really hard for Tyler despite the warnings from Mississippi State. 

I don't know the logic in rejecting Corky. I suspect it was "assistant without D1 head coaching experience" vs "an experienced D1 head coach." I read gripes about Seth's hire for the same reasons. Sometimes that up and coming assistant really IS better than the experienced head coach! 

[GrandGreen]

On 6/12/2017 at 8:42 AM, GrandGreen said:

 

On 6/11/2017 at 10:12 PM, Ryan Munthe said:

Sorry.

Putting Mac or Dickey on "worst coach" list is asinine.

Make your own list then.   I made my case why I selected the coaches I did.    I hesitated to even participate, because of posts like this.  

Present your views and tell me why for example that DD doesn't deserve to be on this list after frequently making comments like this is the worst job in the nation.  Yes, that is what a hc trying to sell a program to recruits should be on record stating.

 McCarney had more resources than anyone before and a relatively easy conference to play in.   He had one good year primarily because of Dodge's recruits.  I remember when he got here of the big deal he made of how few Dodge recruits had other offers.   He never came close to even equaling Dodge's recruiting.  

Yes, there is also a matter of records.  McCarney at 22-32 including a 9-4 year.  DD was 42-64.   

I wonder who you think these two coaches were better than.  Jerry Moore, Matt Simon or Corky Nelson.  Before you put Simon on that list, look at the resource level he had and the schedule he played.  McCarney would have never taken the job, and DD would have exploded.  

I have presented my asinine views, your turn to back up yours. 

On 6/12/2017 at 7:13 AM, VideoEagle said:

 

I am still waiting for that ranking list.