CUSA and Sunbelt Merger About to Happen Folks

[MeanGreenTexan]

18 minutes ago, edcollopy said:

Nobody pays attention to MWC football.  Regional teams make much more sense...despite them being 'smaller' programs.  Nobody cares about Colorado St, Air Force, San Diego St. etc...they are bigger names but their TV ratings outside the mountain regions are trash.  Won't help our attendance either with them not traveling very well.  I'd love to go on some of those road trips though!

If "nobody" pays attention to MWC football, then "nobody - 100" pays attention to C-USA, and "nobody - 1000" pays attention to SBC football.   If there is a big conference swap between C-USA & SBC, then it lumps us in with the SBC schools, which is perceived as pee-wee football to the rest of the U.S.  

If this happens, Wren needs to get on the phone with UTEP's AD, and work out a Texas two-step to the MWC... sorry LATech, wish you could join us.

And for Scrappy's sake, edcollopy (it's not just you, sir....)
WE. MUST. GET. OUT. OF. THE. MINDSET. BOLDED. ABOVE.
UNT football must be attractive enough to get OUR OWN PEOPLE interested.   We can fill up our own stadium.  Need to give people around here something to be excited about though.  We should not need to rely on other teams to fill Apogee.   We're a bigger school than East Carolina.  We have more alumni.  Yet ECU has a bigger stadium and can fill it even without playing nearby teams... with THEIR OWN FANS.  It's because they win somewhat consistently, and have been for quite a while.

 

31 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

So we can enjoy 9:00 game start times? No thanks!

And you know what's GREAT about 9:00pm start times?   You're only battling TV air time with the PAC12... instead of Big12, SEC, Big10, ACC, AAC, MAC, SBC.   So if it means there are more opportunities to see UNT away games on TV, then by all means sign me up for midnight football games.  Because as of now, we have ZERO UNT football games being broadcast to national audiences.
I'd be willing to bet UNT home games will still kick at 7:00pm or earlier.

[forevereagle]

9 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

And you know what's GREAT about 9:00pm start times?   You're only battling TV air time with the PAC12... instead of Big12, SEC, Big10, ACC, AAC, MAC, SBC.   So if it means there are more opportunities to see UNT away games on TV, then by all means sign me up for midnight football games.  Because as of now, we have ZERO UNT football games being broadcast to national audiences.

But with those start times, you lose most of the local market that we actually reside in. I don't remember going to the office and ever hearing folks around the water cooler talking about the great late game that Nevada played against UNLV. Even when TCU was in the MWC, nobody watched their late games, they just knew about the outcome the next day.

[UNTFan23]

1 minute ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

And you know what's GREAT about 9:00pm start times?   You're only battling TV air time with the PAC12... instead of Big12, SEC, Big10, ACC, AAC, MAC, SBC.   So if it means there are more opportunities to see UNT away games on TV, then by all means sign me up for midnight football games.  Because as of now, we have ZERO UNT football games being broadcast to national audiences.
I'd be willing to bet UNT home games will still kick at 7:00pm or earlier.

This affects way more than just football. All of our away weekday basketball games will have 8:00 or 9:00 PM tip offs (assuming a 7:00 local start time) for our men's and women's teams. If there is an immediate return trip for a Saturday home game, then the players likely won't get home until 3:00 or 4:00 AM if they leave for the airport right after the game. It would likely be a similar situation for many of our other sports where night games are more commonplace (soccer and softball?).

There is also no certainty that we'd have any more away games being nationally broadcast in the MWC then we do right now with CUSA. None. In fact, MWC and its membership is giving consideration to not letting TV have so much control over its game scheduling, which likely means fewer opportunities for national broadcasts. It's also not uncommon to see MWC weekday games, which also means a few of those games will be played here in Denton.

[MeanGreenTexan]

36 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

Conference affiliation to many doesn't show seriousness to a sport or athletics in general. If it did, do you think Texas would still be in the Big 12?

UNT:UT is not a fair comparison, at all.
UT is still cashing LHN checks.   Once that money dries up, they'll get to go wherever they want... but they wont remain where they are.  
And the Big 12, however you feel about it, is still a P5 conference, for now.

When talking about G5 schools, you're either in AAC, MWC, or you're likely to be dismissed.  C-USA was once where AAC is now, but with the mass exodus, it's just not the same.

Look, If UNT could move up to the MWC, and do well there, then maybe we'll be in a good position to cash in on restructuring with the Big12 leftover schools when UT/OU leave.   Gonna have to show we're in Houston's league, when it comes to national perception and commitment to athletics.  And it wouldn't hurt to have a fantastic string of coaches come through here (starting with Seth) like they did with Briles/Sumlin/Levine/Herman, that could elevate us to rankings and big bowl conversations.

[UNTFan23]

14 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

UNT:UT is not a fair comparison, at all.
UT is still cashing LHN checks.   Once that money dries up, they'll get to go wherever they want... but they wont remain where they are.  
And the Big 12, however you feel about it, is still a P5 conference, for now.

When talking about G5 schools, you're either in AAC, MWC, or you're likely to be dismissed.  C-USA was once where AAC is now, but with the mass exodus, it's just not the same.

Look, If UNT could move up to the MWC, and do well there, then maybe we'll be in a good position to cash in on restructuring with the Big12 leftover schools when UT/OU leave.   Gonna have to show we're in Houston's league, when it comes to national perception and commitment to athletics.  And it wouldn't hurt to have a fantastic string of coaches come through here (starting with Seth) like they did with Briles/Sumlin/Levine/Herman, that could elevate us to rankings and big bowl conversations.

Unless we can park all our other sports in a more regional conference like the Southland Conference, it doesn't make economic sense to ship our non-revenue teams out west. Another problem is with the MWC adding more mouths to feed teams to their conference slate, will the addition of at least two teams (New Mexico State or UTEP plus North Texas) going to generate enough revenue for the conference to make up the extra costs of the existing membership to send all of their teams to those new schools (assuming all the new schools become full members)?

[MeanGreenTexan]

3 minutes ago, forevereagle said:

But with those start times, you lose most of the local market that we actually reside in. I don't remember going to the office and ever hearing folks around the water cooler talking about the great late game that Nevada played against UNLV. Even when TCU was in the MWC, nobody watched their late games, they just knew about the outcome the next day.

Same with UNT VS UTSA now... except, that game is not on TV.
Also, your watercooler is here in DFW, where there's likely no UNLV/Nevada fans.   Maybe if a UNT game was on TV, at least someone would see it.

 

5 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

This affects way more than just football. All of our away weekday basketball games will have 8:00 or 9:00 PM tip offs (assuming a 7:00 local start time) for our men's and women's teams. If there is an immediate return trip for a Saturday home game, then the players likely won't get home until 3:00 or 4:00 AM if they leave for the airport right after the game. It would likely be a similar situation for many of our other sports where night games are more commonplace (soccer and softball?).

There is also no certainty that we'd have any more away games being nationally broadcast in the MWC then we do right now with CUSA. None. In fact, MWC and its membership is giving consideration to not letting TV have so much control over its game scheduling, which likely means fewer opportunities for national broadcasts. It's also not uncommon to see MWC weekday games, which also means a few of those games will be played here in Denton.

Yes, it will affect more than football.   Is that a price we'd be willing to pay to try and move up in the world?  Could coaches McCasland/Mitchell/Hedlund succeed out West?   Or, is UNT OK to just sit back and merge with the SBC to stay close to other "like" schools?

And if a ranked Boise St. shows up to Apogee on a Thursday night, I believe there would be more people at that game than against WKU on a Saturday evening.   Heck, even AFA on a Thursday night would likely still bring a bigger turnout than say, Southern Miss on a Saturday.

Sometimes you have to step out of your comfort zone to improve your lot in life.

[UNTFan23]

1 minute ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Same with UNT VS UTSA now... except, that game is not on TV.
Also, your watercooler is here in DFW, where there's likely no UNLV/Nevada fans.   Maybe if a UNT game was on TV, at least someone would see it.

 

Yes, it will affect more than football.   Is that a price we'd be willing to pay to try and move up in the world?  Could coaches McCasland/Mitchell/Hedlund succeed out West?   Or, is UNT OK to just sit back and merge with the SBC to stay close to other "like" schools?

And if a ranked Boise St. shows up to Apogee on a Thursday night, I believe there would be more people at that game than against WKU on a Saturday evening.   Heck, even AFA on a Thursday night would likely still bring a bigger turnout than say, Southern Miss on a Saturday.

Sometimes you have to step out of your comfort zone to improve your lot in life.

Are you willing to pay more at the gate to ship our teams all over the Mountain and Pacific time zones? How about increasing your Mean Green Club donation level? As fans, we need to put our money where our mouths and aspirations are.

[MeanGreenTexan]

Just now, UNTFan23 said:

Are you willing to pay more at the gate to ship our teams all over the Mountain and Pacific time zones? How about increasing your Mean Green Club donation level? As fans, we need to put our money where our mouths and aspirations are.

YES to your questions, and I totally agree with the bolded.  I realize I may be in the minority though.   That's why I'm glad I don't have Wren's job.

[untjim1995]

I have been an advocate of going to the MWC for a long time, but two things really got confirmed to me about this.

1.) Our fans don't want it---they think its too far away. I believe that is typically short-sighted, but the reality is that what we want, we cannot ever have--a bid into a conference with SMU and other regional rivals higher up the foodchain than the current CUSA teams.

2.) The even bigger point, which really got cemented to me after TCU joined the Big XII, is that the MWC doesn't want us. They want other Texas schools from the Big XII's eventual demise, as well as possibly getting SMU or UH to join. That isn't even counting UTEP or UTSA, two cities with bowls to offer. I do believe that the MWC was a possibility back when TCU was there, but our football team went from Bad Dickey to Terrible Dodge in that same time, totally crushing the advancement of the Johnny Jones-led hoops team's attractiveness to a league.

We are basically stuck at this point. The AAC and MWC will continue to be given the opportunities to play the Power Leagues in football in OOC and in bowl games, when the Big XII goes the way of the dodo, but the rest of us in the lower G5 will be left to officially start our own level of play with the top end of FCS schools, probably by 2025, which is when the GOR expires for the Big XII. I see Texas keeping LHN money until that expires in 2031, meaning either a conference lets them keep it until then or they will just go independent in football until then. OU, KU, and WVU will be the next schools taken, then OSU, Tech, and KSU have to hope for some long coattails from big brother. If they get them, they stay in a power league. If they don't, they'll join ISU, TCU, and Baylor on the dropout list, giving the AAC and MWC some nice sloppy seconds to fight over.

I imagine seeing the Pac 12 become 16 with UT, Tech, OU, and OSU. I see the B1G getting KU and UConn to go to 16. I see the SEC possibly adding WVU and KSU to get to 16. The ACC probably adds Cincy to get to 16 teams for them, while UConn goes back to the Big East and becomes a football independent like UMass.

The MWC then decides to add in TCU and Baylor. If they can get BYU to also come back, that would leave them with one spot remaining, which I believe will be reserved for UTEP. That gets them to 16. The AAC, sitting at 10 teams after UConn and Cincy leave, will add ISU, then try and get Army to join Navy in their league as football only, as well. That gets them to 12. If they want to go to 16, then they set their sights on the MAC and CUSA teams they want to add, like NIU, Ohio, MUTS, and maybe a team like Marshall.

And that will be it. The rest of the MAC, CUSA, and SBC, as well as the top FCS schools, probably totaling about 60 schools or so,  will be playing at a secondary level, with a playoff to win the national championship like the current FCS does.

 

[Cerebus]

MWC is no longer a step up.

Their TV contract pays out a little more than the old CUSA contract did, but they play at weird times and have to be ready to move games at the last second.

They are now a one bid tournament team.

So for $500k more year we have to play teams in the wrong time zone, with more difficult travel, that will travel no one here, that will cost us more to ship the non revenue sports.   Regional media, alumni, and CFB fans don't care if we are in the MWC or CUSA, neither one will draw in people on conference affiliation alone.  

 

And then when their TV contract is up in 2020 they will get a hair cut just like all the other G5 leagues.  So we get to do all the above for $100k more, which we will spend on travel.  

[Arkstfan]

59 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

MWC is no longer a step up.

Their TV contract pays out a little more than the old CUSA contract did, but they play at weird times and have to be ready to move games at the last second.

They are now a one bid tournament team.

So for $500k more year we have to play teams in the wrong time zone, with more difficult travel, that will travel no one here, that will cost us more to ship the non revenue sports.   Regional media, alumni, and CFB fans don't care if we are in the MWC or CUSA, neither one will draw in people on conference affiliation alone.  

 

And then when their TV contract is up in 2020 they will get a hair cut just like all the other G5 leagues.  So we get to do all the above for $100k more, which we will spend on travel.  

Speculation is they cut back Boise's most favored status (ie. keep more money based on appearances) because they are expecting to take a hair cut. They are already talking about their digital network which is now partnered with Campus Insiders picking up more content.

As I've said before, we are moving into a world where TV goes down the rabbit hole that music has gone down. No one but proven stars get upfront money and everyone else is paid by the listen uh watch.

I figure the networks will pay some money to fill in weeknight slots and obscure channel slots but the bulk of the future money is going to be based on how many tune in and watch.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Arkstfan
spellin was wrong

[wardly]

Unless I was dreaming, I read where the MWC was considering dropping their existing T.V. contract for football because they always got stuck with 9:00 or 10:00 P.M. kickoffs which was too late for even their fans.

[untjim1995]

1 hour ago, Cerebus said:

MWC is no longer a step up.

Their TV contract pays out a little more than the old CUSA contract did, but they play at weird times and have to be ready to move games at the last second.

They are now a one bid tournament team.

So for $500k more year we have to play teams in the wrong time zone, with more difficult travel, that will travel no one here, that will cost us more to ship the non revenue sports.   Regional media, alumni, and CFB fans don't care if we are in the MWC or CUSA, neither one will draw in people on conference affiliation alone.  

 

And then when their TV contract is up in 2020 they will get a hair cut just like all the other G5 leagues.  So we get to do all the above for $100k more, which we will spend on travel.  

Well, if they get to still play Power Teams and we in the lower G5s don't, that's still a lot of money to make for the MWC and AAC that the MACUSBC won't be able to get, from road games or gate receipts from the home game they might still get.

[Aldo]

Coming across this thread like

[Arkstfan]

13 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

Well, if they get to still play Power Teams and we in the lower G5s don't, that's still a lot of money to make for the MWC and AAC that the MACUSBC won't be able to get, from road games or gate receipts from the home game they might still get.

This year MWC teams hosting power teams:
Virginia at Boise State

Oregon State at Colorado State

Oregon at Wyoming

Stanford at SDSU

Now a control group. The Sun Belt

Wake Forest at App State

Miami at Arkansas State

Oklahoma State at South Alabama

When you consider that there are only 15 G5 schools (soon 14) and 12 P5 schools in the combined Mountain, Pacific, and Hawaiian time zones I'm a bit surprised MWC doesn't leverage more power school opponents.

[Aldo]

1 hour ago, Arkstfan said:

This year MWC teams hosting power teams:
Virginia at Boise State

Oregon State at Colorado State

Oregon at Wyoming

Stanford at SDSU

Now a control group. The Sun Belt

Wake Forest at App State

Miami at Arkansas State

Oklahoma State at South Alabama

When you consider that there are only 15 G5 schools (soon 14) and 12 P5 schools in the combined Mountain, Pacific, and Hawaiian time zones I'm a bit surprised MWC doesn't leverage more power school opponents.

#triggered

[UNTLifer]

Who is Coach Bill Lewis?

[Arkstfan]

1 hour ago, Aldo said:

#triggered

It would have been four for the Sun Belt but NC State moved their game at Troy to 2020.

[Cerebus]

58 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Who is Coach Bill Lewis?

https://i.imgur.com/69Luanc.gif

 

[untjim1995]

4 hours ago, Arkstfan said:

This year MWC teams hosting power teams:
Virginia at Boise State

Oregon State at Colorado State

Oregon at Wyoming

Stanford at SDSU

Now a control group. The Sun Belt

Wake Forest at App State

Miami at Arkansas State

Oklahoma State at South Alabama

When you consider that there are only 15 G5 schools (soon 14) and 12 P5 schools in the combined Mountain, Pacific, and Hawaiian time zones I'm a bit surprised MWC doesn't leverage more power school opponents.

It has seemed over the years that Pac-12 schools have traveled to MWC opponents more frequently, not unlike some of the ACC schools playing eastern AAC schools on the road. I know Boise has faced the three NW Pac-12 schools quite a bit, while BYU hosted the southern Pac-12 schools some. But your point is correct about thinking they would play more home-and-home series.

Of course, the Pac-12 now plays the B1G teams in at least one OOC game usually, so that leaves you 3 more home games, of which at least 1 or 2 are bought games, so that limits your scheduling flexibility some. I know this was one of the reasons that Nebraska in the B1G cancelled a game in Chicago against NIU, which was part of a 4 for 1 series, but NIU still accepts the remaining 4 games in Lincoln for the cash.

I still find Okie State's acceptance of road games at MAC, CUSA, and SBC games as odd, but they probably look at them as easier road wins that help to teach kids how to get focused for the bigger road games ahead in their season. Gundy sure look at this completely different that every other Power League school, for sure.

[outoftown]

On 4/10/2017 at 10:33 AM, Arkstfan said:

Simple question.

How much of a conference's overhead could be eliminated by consolidation?

Whether or not you shuffle the lineup, why can't CUSA and Sun Belt consolidate their administrative operations. There is more work compiling stats and sending press releases and organizing championship events but I bet if you combine the administrative operations you don't need as many people and don't need to lease as much office space.

Why not do multi-year agreements with an eastern and western city for the conference basketball tournament and flip CUSA and Sun Belt between the locations each year. 2018 CUSA plays in the west city, Sun Belt plays in the east city, flip in 2019, flip back 2020, and again in 2021.

TV deals are near identical, why not sync up the contracts and negotiate them as one deal?

Don't have to change the line-ups, they remain independent conferences that just jointly share administrative costs.

That I can actually kind of see happen, would not be quite so difficult to convince everybody I think. Only problem I see, is what will the combined administration do if there is a conflict of interest between the conferences or some members.

[wardly]

Not near the savings a geographic realignment would generate.

[MeanGreenTexan]

1 minute ago, wardly said:

Not near the savings a geographic realignment would generate.

If it's about saving money, why don't we just drop down to the Southland conference?   Why did we build Apogee?  Why are we building an IPF?   None of those things are necessary and would save us a ton of money.

I hate to sound like a certain poster on here who graduated in '90, but if it's about saving dollars, what are we doing here?

[untjim1995]

18 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

If it's about saving money, why don't we just drop down to the Southland conference?   Why did we build Apogee?  Why are we building an IPF?   None of those things are necessary and would save us a ton of money.

I hate to sound like a certain poster on here who graduated in '90, but if it's about saving dollars, what are we doing here?

I think the BOR and administration are wanting to spend enough to be a G5 program--but that is the hard part because you have other G5s in the state that are higher up the foodchain who do spend lots of $$$ in SMU and UH. And spending money without a guarantee has never really been something we have done much of before.

The reality to all of this is the tv revenue being reduced so noticeably. Now, you have three ways to help your bottom line--control spending, increase attendance, and play whore games. Geographically, we can accomplish the first two ways, for sure. And number three has been tried and done infinitum over the decades.

If the SBCUSA comes to pass, combining into four separate divisions, that won't be the worst thing that could happen here. If the MWC and AAC won't take us, particularly when the Big XII falls apart, then we are going to have to do something to control costs better. Regionalization will do that, and if certain teams won't play in a division with another team, than the SBCUSA model can probably accommodate this.

If we had given the MWC any reason to believe we could have added value there, I still don't believe our fanbase or administration would have gone for it. Its too bad, but the fact will always remain that you can get people to go to watch us play Boise State, AFA, Colorado State, and Fresno State at Apogee over F_Us, ODU, and Charlotte. You can get people to watch us play SDSU, UNM, or UNLV in basketball at the Super Pit, too. But that's not what the majority wants, so it was never gonna get accepted even if they offered us, sadly.

[MeanGreenTexan]

23 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

.... If the MWC and AAC won't take us, particularly when the Big XII falls apart, then we are going to have to do something to control costs better. Regionalization will do that, and if certain teams won't play in a division with another team, than the SBCUSA model can probably accommodate this.

...

Sure.   But do you think settling into this hodgepodge conference would show either AAC, MWC, or whatever the Big12 leftovers turn into, that we're serious about moving up to join them?  

I'm betting a spot in this league will be open to NT for eternity.  It's not like it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to join.