UNT Law Hangs on to Accreditation Hopes

[Harry]

A Long Path

It took 10 years to persuade lawmakers to authorize another public law school. Finally, the Texas Legislature in 2009 voted to approve a new public law school and provide $5 million in startup funds.

UNT Dallas in 2014 welcomed 153 students when it opened with a lofty mission: to broaden access to a legal education by keeping tuition low and admitting students whom other law schools might pass over. UNT Dallas wanted to create lawyers who were diverse in race and ethnicity, age, professional experience and socioeconomic background.

Flipped: Today, 51.4 percent of UNT Law students are minorities, and 54.3 percent are women.

Seeking ABA accreditation is critical to UNT Law becoming fully established in Texas. Without accreditation, students can't sit for the bar exam and become lawyers.

The first blow in the accreditation battle came in June 2016. The accreditation committee of the ABA's education section recommended against granting provisional accreditation. It had questions about the school's finances and found the school to be out of compliance with a rule requiring law schools to maintain "sound admission policies and practices," noting that it has fallen short of the median 150 LSAT goal set out by the university regents. The school's median LSAT in 2015 was 146. The bottom 25 percent of students who entered in Fall 2015 had an LSAT score of 143.

But UNT Law officials made their case to the ABA education section's council in October, and the council in November sent the matter back to the accreditation committee for further study. The council noted that a fact-finder must visit the school, verify new evidence and review the school's plan to address the problems with admissions and finances. The additional fact finding might happen early in the spring 2017 semester.

ABA spokesman Bill Choyke declined to comment about UNT Dallas' accreditation journey.

Change Coming

Furgeson reflected on the reasons his school "stumbled out of the starting blocks" in its quest for accreditation. He said when it began the process, the ABA was changing how it assesses law schools. It wasn't clear the organization would put so much emphasis on admissions and LSAT scores. UNT Law was paying attention and emulating other trends emerging from the ABA—a standard for law school classes to have multiple assessments, a goal to make tuition and costs more affordable and an idea that LSAT scores shouldn't be the only factor in admissions, explained Furgeson. He said the school used different criteria in admissions and wasn't as prepared as it should have been for the ABA's emphasis on LSAT scores.

The national law school applicant pool has declined in size and quality, and the ABA has grown concerned that law schools are admitting weak students to keep enrollment up. The organization in summer 2016 also faced criticism from an advisory committee of the U.S. Department of Education for lax oversight of law schools and scant enforcement of its rules.

"I'm trying to read the tea leaves, and I think the tea leaves are: The ABA is very worried about bar passage," Furgeson said. "We're just going to have to work harder at the admissions process and really put a great deal more focus on it."

Furgeson said the school has created a matrix of 11 factors to give an extraordinary review to people who score in the low 140s on the LSAT or applicants who have been disqualified from another law school. The school will still consider them, if they had rigorous undergraduate studies, significant work experience, faced adversity or hardship, served in the military and other factors. Their admission will now require a super-majority vote of the UNT Law admissions committee, Furgeson noted.

Regarding the ABA committee's concern about UNT Law's finances, Furgeson said the school purposely set tuition low, with the plan to raise it by 4 percent per year until it tops out at $17,000. That's going to stay the same. The school always exceeded its goal to enroll 120 new students per year.

Read more:  http://www.texaslawyer.com/id=1202776939164/UNT-Law-Hangs-on-to-Accreditation-Hopes?mcode=1202616608548&curindex=0&curpage=2

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

We never needed a law school.  Also, the world didn't need another law school either.  They have become paper mills while various state legislatures have passed laws to shut attorneys out of whole classes of potential action.

Texas legislature is bringing the hammer down of hail roof claim chasers this session.  During the past three decades, they've shut down Work Comp attorneys, Med Mal attorneys, and Class Action attorneys.

Whenever the desperate plaintiffs attorneys in Texas try to attack some arcane area - crazy that they are reduced to hail claims, funny actually - the Texas legislature slaps them back down. 

There is no money in defending criminals.  But, there is nothing else to do for the vast majority of law grads now.  They all are stuck in the DWI/Divorce mousewheel that they really have no control over anyway. 

[All About UNT]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

We never needed a law school.  Also, the world didn't need another law school either.  They have become paper mills while various state legislatures have passed laws to shut attorneys out of whole classes of potential action.

Texas legislature is bringing the hammer down of hail roof claim chasers this session.  During the past three decades, they've shut down Work Comp attorneys, Med Mal attorneys, and Class Action attorneys.

Whenever the desperate plaintiffs attorneys in Texas try to attack some arcane area - crazy that they are reduced to hail claims, funny actually - the Texas legislature slaps them back down. 

There is no money in defending criminals.  But, there is nothing else to do for the vast majority of law grads now.  They all are stuck in the DWI/Divorce mousewheel that they really have no control over anyway. 

yup.... A&M Law is the worst of the bunch too. Right guys?

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

We never needed a law school.  Also, the world didn't need another law school either.  They have become paper mills while various state legislatures have passed laws to shut attorneys out of whole classes of potential action.

Texas legislature is bringing the hammer down of hail roof claim chasers this session.  During the past three decades, they've shut down Work Comp attorneys, Med Mal attorneys, and Class Action attorneys.

Whenever the desperate plaintiffs attorneys in Texas try to attack some arcane area - crazy that they are reduced to hail claims, funny actually - the Texas legislature slaps them back down. 

There is no money in defending criminals.  But, there is nothing else to do for the vast majority of law grads now.  They all are stuck in the DWI/Divorce mousewheel that they really have no control over anyway. 

Those poor, poor insurance companies, getting gouged by those blood-sucking hail-chasing attorneys. Whatever will they do? I'm sure the Texas legislature is doing its noble duty slapping down those ambulance-chasing demons-in-suits, and it has nothing to do with lobbyist from the insurance companies at all. Check their campaign contributions, I bet you'll find it's all from fly-by-night shingle-hanging personal injury attorneys. 

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

5 hours ago, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

Those poor, poor insurance companies, getting gouged by those blood-sucking hail-chasing attorneys. Whatever will they do? I'm sure the Texas legislature is doing its noble duty slapping down those ambulance-chasing demons-in-suits, and it has nothing to do with lobbyist from the insurance companies at all. Check their campaign contributions, I bet you'll find it's all from fly-by-night shingle-hanging personal injury attorneys. 

What is your point?  That the insurance lobby has more money and influence than the plaintiffs' attorney lobby?  Plaintiffs' attorneys getting whipped in the legislature is their own fault.    

My point is that because the legislature in Texas does shut down many avenues for suit in Texas, plaintiffs attorneys have a difficult time making a living. 

With less and less work for attorneys, however, universities continue to open law schools that are not needed. 

How do you take those points and turn them into an insurance rant?  The discussion is whether or not the UNT Law School was needed in the first place.  It wasn't.  Neither was Texas Wesleyan/A&M.  Both could shut down - as well as two or three others in the state - and there would still be enough attorneys in the state to fill the need for legal representation.  More than enough.

 

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

44 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

What is your point?  That the insurance lobby has more money and influence than the plaintiffs' attorney lobby?  Plaintiffs' attorneys getting whipped in the legislature is their own fault.    

My point is that because the legislature in Texas does shut down many avenues for suit in Texas, plaintiffs attorneys have a difficult time making a living. 

With less and less work for attorneys, however, universities continue to open law schools that are not needed. 

How do you take those points and turn them into an insurance rant?  The discussion is whether or not the UNT Law School was needed in the first place.  It wasn't.  Neither was Texas Wesleyan/A&M.  Both could shut down - as well as two or three others in the state - and there would still be enough attorneys in the state to fill the need for legal representation.  More than enough.

 

Because you're shitting on PI attorney and "hail claim chasers" for no reason, which I know from experience usually only comes up with people who work in insurance. It's just a tired bit you hear quite a bit in the profession. Usually comes with some anecdote about the McDonalds coffee case...

i don't disagree with your point about the legal market. Then again, that wasn't your original point. You took an opportunity to call out the profession as if it's all ambulance chasers, DWI attorneys, or divorce attorneys. 

You're correct. This law school wasn't needed and neither are many others, but for different reasons. The demand isn't there because a lot of reasons, least of which is tort reform which happened in the 90s and early 2000s in Texas. This mostly started with the recession.

Edited February 11, 2017 by ChristopherRyanWilkes

[Army of Dad]

2 hours ago, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

shitting on attorney

Sounds like a good start.

#LawyerJokes

[TreeFiddy]

43 minutes ago, Army of Dad said:

Sounds like a good start.

#LawyerJokes

I think that's called a Hot Johnny, similar to a Hot Carl, but name in honor of Johnny Cochran.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

On 2/10/2017 at 7:40 PM, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

Because you're shitting on PI attorney and "hail claim chasers" for no reason, which I know from experience usually only comes up with people who work in insurance. It's just a tired bit you hear quite a bit in the profession. Usually comes with some anecdote about the McDonalds coffee case...

i don't disagree with your point about the legal market. Then again, that wasn't your original point. You took an opportunity to call out the profession as if it's all ambulance chasers, DWI attorneys, or divorce attorneys. 

You're correct. This law school wasn't needed and neither are many others, but for different reasons. The demand isn't there because a lot of reasons, least of which is tort reform which happened in the 90s and early 2000s in Texas. This mostly started with the recession.

I'm not sh*tting on them.  I merely said we didn't need more law schools because of the action of the Texas legislature. 

There were already nine law schools in Texas.  And, really, only Texas, SMU, Baylor, Houston, and Texas Tech are needed.  Ours is a ridiculous piling onto the lowest of the low tier schools, not only in Texas and the region, but in the United State as well.

In the end, it is a huge waste of time and money.  You don't need a law school to be taken seriously academically...or are Rice, UTD and Austin College missing something that we've seen?

 

Edited February 14, 2017 by MeanGreenMailbox

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

19 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I'm not sh*tting on them.  I merely said we didn't need more law schools because of the action of the Texas legislature. 

There were already nine law schools in Texas.  And, really, only Texas, SMU, Baylor, Houston, and Texas Tech are needed.  Ours is a ridiculous piling onto the lowest of the low tier schools, not only in Texas and the region, but in the United State as well.

In the end, it is a huge waste of time and money.  You don't need a law school to be taken seriously academically...or are Rice, UTD and Austin College missing something that we've seen?

 

Again--I just think you mischaracterized the reason why we are in the current legal state. If you want to blame anyone, blame the pyramid scheme that was big corporate law firms, which all collapsed after the recession. 

[Harry]

11 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I'm not sh*tting on them.  I merely said we didn't need more law schools because of the action of the Texas legislature. 

There were already nine law schools in Texas.  And, really, only Texas, SMU, Baylor, Houston, and Texas Tech are needed.  Ours is a ridiculous piling onto the lowest of the low tier schools, not only in Texas and the region, but in the United State as well.

In the end, it is a huge waste of time and money.  You don't need a law school to be taken seriously academically...or are Rice, UTD and Austin College missing something that we've seen?

 

Hindsight is 20/20.  Well we have one now, and if you care about North Texas you have to hope they will be able to pull through.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

I'm not sure hindsight is 20/20 if they had looked around the landscape and had the foresight to say, "Does the legal world really need another Texas Wesleyan/Texas Southern/St. Mary's/South Texas?"

Having connections in the legal field, it was generally a head scratcher to everyone outside the UNT universe to everyone when it was announced. 

Probably a bigger need for the future is anything related to medicine - pharmacy schools, nursing schools, etc.  Throwing money into a law school that they were admittedly setting up to dump more attorneys into the already flooded DA/Criminal Defense areas was pathetic.

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I'm not sure hindsight is 20/20 if they had looked around the landscape and had the foresight to say, "Does the legal world really need another Texas Wesleyan/Texas Southern/St. Mary's/South Texas?"

Having connections in the legal field, it was generally a head scratcher to everyone outside the UNT universe to everyone when it was announced. 

Probably a bigger need for the future is anything related to medicine - pharmacy schools, nursing schools, etc.  Throwing money into a law school that they were admittedly setting up to dump more attorneys into the already flooded DA/Criminal Defense areas was pathetic.

History tells us that less than 50% of their students will pass the bar this year. And after that, they'll probably pull any hope of getting accredited. And yes, it is a big embarrassment for the University, especially when those bar numbers come out. 

[MCMLXXX]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I'm not sure hindsight is 20/20 if they had looked around the landscape and had the foresight to say, "Does the legal world really need another Texas Wesleyan/Texas Southern/St. Mary's/South Texas?"

We should have purchased Texas Wesleyan when we had the chance. Could have moved the school to Dallas afterwards. The Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board should have allowed Texas A&M to affiliate with the South Texas College of Law even though UH Law opposed the plan.

As it stands we did not need another Law School in Texas and most current Law Schools in Texas are reducing enrollment.  

[forevereagle]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I'm not sure hindsight is 20/20 if they had looked around the landscape and had the foresight to say,

I'm not sure this sentence makes any sense. Hindsight has absolutely nothing to do with what kind of foresight anyone had.

Edited February 15, 2017 by forevereagle

[FirefightnRick]

What a waste of resources.  One of the lousiest endeavors in our school's history.

Plummer's "Kids Corner" was more successful.

 

Rick

Edited February 16, 2017 by FirefightnRick

[MeanGreenTeeth]

The median LSAT was 146?  Good Lord.  I'm pretty sure my cousin Vinny scored much higher than that.

Edited February 16, 2017 by MeanGreenTeeth

[KingDL1]

So we seek to be a bottom tier Law school to produce budget Lawyers?

Perfect

[Army of Dad]

3 hours ago, KingDL1 said:

So we seek to be a bottom tier Law school to produce budget Lawyers?

Perfect

#Vision

[DeepGreen]

4 hours ago, KingDL1 said:

So we seek to be a bottom tier Law school to produce budget Lawyers?

Perfect

Falls right in line with our Athletic Programs.

I've always wanted to read UNT's Quality Process "Vision Statement".

Edited February 26, 2017 by DeepGreen