Idaho dropping down to FCS

[NTXCoog]

22 hours ago, GangGreen said:

Loved this statement from the twitter.

"Idaho football expected to make unprecedented move from FBS to FCS & Big Sky, sources confirm"

I certainly can't think of any other schools that willingly moved one step down from the top classification of college football.

Can anyone else?

As an outsider, can someone explain what really happened?  I'd always thought that the UNT demotion was voluntary, but the UNT football wikipedia page says "the team was subsequently demoted to Division I-AA status by the NCAA."

There were other schools that sent down to I-AA at the same time.  So did the NCAA force UNT's hand to either make changes or get demoted, and UNT opted not to make the changes, sort of forced "voluntary"? Or was it strictly an NCAA action with UNT having no choice?

[untjim1995]

10 minutes ago, NTXCoog said:

As an outsider, can someone explain what really happened?  I'd always thought that the UNT demotion was voluntary, but the UNT football wikipedia page says "the team was subsequently demoted to Division I-AA status by the NCAA."

There were other schools that sent down to I-AA at the same time.  So did the NCAA force UNT's hand to either make changes or get demoted, and UNT opted not to make the changes, sort of forced "voluntary"? Or was it strictly an NCAA action with UNT having no choice?

Basically, the NCAA did lower us because we couldn't/wouldn't meet the demands for stadium size that they required. But we chose to stay down there because it cost less for 12 years. Instead of taking advantage of Texas Stadium or the Cotton Bowl to play at for a season so that we could expand or destroy Fouts, we chose to just let the program rot. Only when it became clear that going back up to I-A would allow our budgets to get infused with cash from being a bought opponent in football as a bodybag did we decide to move up by putting 10,500 aluminum seats onto the end zones at Fouts, seats that were easily the worst you could ever sit in for a football game, if only because you were about a mile away from the field due to our track being around the football field.

[Cerebus]

18 minutes ago, NTXCoog said:

 I'd always thought that the UNT demotion was voluntary, but the UNT football wikipedia page says "the team was subsequently demoted to Division I-AA status by the NCAA."

The leadership at the time DECIDED to not meet the new requirements.  So yes the NCAA demoted us, but our leadership could have decided to fund the new requirements and avoid the demotion.  

[NTXCoog]

Thanks for the responses.  Every article has this as "unprecedented" or "first team ever to move from FBS to FCS."   Definitely not providing the full story.

[UNTLifer]

49 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

Only when it became clear that going back up to I-A would allow our budgets to get infused with cash from being a bought opponent in football as a bodybag did we decide to move up...

Not true.  We played body bag games every single year we were Div. 1AA to support the budget.

[Mike Jackson]

On April 28, 2016 at 7:37 PM, Mike Jackson said:

 

These two quote had to be put together.  There are far too many fans here in denial.  I don't think it is likely in the short term but if you would bet something substantial that Seth's successor won't be the last coach to lead a UNT team playing in the FBS level (or the same level on with Big 12 big boys after some division reorganization) you are a fool.

 

9 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

New Mexico State should drop down as well. 

I applaud these schools for facing the music.  The NCAA and bigger schools, really, upped the ante by marrying into television marketing.  The bigger schools took advantage of it; others were slow to catch on.

Some, like Baylor, got lucky by being able to freeload off the Big 12 for a decade before finally finding the right coach...who was willing to recruit the criminal element necessary to keep up with OU and Texas.  Boise State caught lightning in a bottle by beating Oklahoma 10 years ago. But, that was long ago and never got them an invite to hang with the cool crowd schools.

TCU fought like hell on and off the field to get an Big Boy invite.  Gotta admire that.  They are the true outlier from the beginning of the shake up that began in 1995/96. 

Idaho, New Mexico State, Eastern Michigan...at some point, you have to look around and ask yourself whether the millions of dollars the school is kicking in to keep the football program afloat at FBS-level is worth it.  It really hasn't been for these schools. 

Keep the money for academics and quit tilting at the football windmills. No shame in having a competitive FCS program.  One will have its QB drafted in the first round this year. 

Can't blame them for the drop down.  If they win more games, it'll be better for their fan bases. 

So this comment basically say they same thing I said but in a "nice way".  I guess that just means there are at least 5 fools out there who think UNT's spot in a football "division or subdivision" on par with Texas, OU, Texas A&M and Texas Tech is guaranteed. SMH

[Rudy]

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 5:01 PM, GangGreen said:

Kibbe Dome > Apogee

If serious, dumbest football post ever on this board?

[GangGreen]

15 minutes ago, Rudy said:

If serious, dumbest football post ever on this board?

Just a shout out to Michael "Thriller" Jackson.

[oldguystudent]

8 hours ago, Rudy said:

If serious, dumbest football post ever on this board?

Pretty sure was a snarky post referring to earlier posts by people who hate everything UNT so much that they feel FCS stadiums are better than Apogee.

[UNT90]

15 hours ago, Cerebus said:

The leadership at the time DECIDED to not meet the new requirements.  So yes the NCAA demoted us, but our leadership could have decided to fund the new requirements and avoid the demotion.  

There has been a lack of leadership at UNT for decades. It's the red headed step child with a learning disability of the Texas Collegiate Systems. 

There is better leadership at most FCS colleges in Texas.

For recent examples, see the accounting scandal, the failure to purchase Weslyan Law School (now A&M law), the failure to protect the athletic fee in the legislature, and the attachment of non-accredited UNT law to UNT-Dallas (2 start up colleges, what could possibly go wrong). 

And these are just the major missteps. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by UNT90

[VideoEagle]

16 hours ago, Cerebus said:

The leadership at the time DECIDED to not meet the new requirements.  So yes the NCAA demoted us, but our leadership could have decided to fund the new requirements and avoid the demotion.  

Not quite. The rule as written by the NCAA was the only (so far) retroactive requirement they ever passed. We would have had to declare Texas Stadium as our home field by 1979 or 1980 - I forget which - to avoid the demotion in 1982. @Arkstfan posted a list of the requirements to stay at 1A several years ago and I can't find it right now. But based on the way the rule was written, they only way we could have stayed 1A was to have taken action a year or two earlier. 

There was a story that circulated that all NT would have had to have done was fill out some form and we could have stayed 1A. I heard it from a very junior person in the athletic department back at the time. The magic form was never specifically identified, but probably was a request for a waiver. While many schools filled out these requests, not a single one was granted. Arkansas State managed to get their waiver request the farthest before the NCAA denied it and no other school was granted so much as a review of the request. So even filling out the magic form would not have prevented the drop down.  

One school, Cincinnati IIRC, threatened to sue and actually started the process. The NCAA allowed them to stay but it was because of the lawsuit and NOT a waiver request. 

What we could have done was move down in 82 and immediately started expanding Fouts and working to increase game attendance. To move back up, we needed both a larger stadium AND a higher average attendance. I think the average we would need was higher than the size of Fouts even after the expansion in 95. It would not have been easy and there's no certainty we could have gotten the attendance up high enough even with the expanded stadium. 

17 hours ago, NTXCoog said:

Thanks for the responses.  Every article has this as "unprecedented" or "first team ever to move from FBS to FCS."   Definitely not providing the full story.

I think they will be the first school to ever VOLUNTARILY move down. 

[Cerebus]

11 minutes ago, VideoEagle said:

I think they will be the first school to ever VOLUNTARILY move down. 

17 hours ago, Cerebus said:

The leadership at the time DECIDED to not meet the new requirements.  So yes the NCAA demoted us, but our leadership could have decided to fund the new requirements and avoid the demotion.  

Being told what steps needed to be taken, and then deciding not to take those steps is the same thing in my book.  We could have decided to stay 1A, but we voluntarily decided to instead move down.  

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

14 hours ago, Mike Jackson said:

 

So this comment basically say they same thing I said but in a "nice way".  I guess that just means there are at least 5 fools out there who think UNT's spot in a football "division or subdivision" on par with Texas, OU, Texas A&M and Texas Tech is guaranteed. SMH

I think it's just a sentiment that really is hurtful to longtime North Texas supporters.  North Texas State had a really good football tradition.  Many conference championships.  Many players sent to the NFL.  Even coaches who eventually went to the NFL!

So, for old timers, it's very hard to see what has happened over the past three to four decades.  It's a 180 degree turnaround from the 50s, 60s, and 70s when North Texas State had an excellent program.

UNT, on the other hand, had a great four year streak under Darrell Dickey and whisper of success for one year under Dan McCarney...and, that's been it in the 21 seasons after returning to I-A/FBS status. 

We have a beautiful stadium now, and that's about it.  It is sad.  Very sad.  We used to have good teams in a poor stadium.  Now we had bad teams in a great stadium.

You are probably right, though, no matter how much it hurts to say it out loud.  If Littrell does fail to "turn it around," our prospects of ever catching up to a college football world that is getting more and more expensive on the top end will be just about nil.  Then, we will probably have to look in the mirror and ask ourselves whether continually propping the program up with University money is really money well spent. 

In short, it's a problem.  A real problem.  A real, sad problem.  A very real, sad problem.  And, we have it.

Edited April 29, 2016 by MeanGreenMailbox

[untjim1995]

18 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

Not true.  We played body bag games every single year we were Div. 1AA to support the budget.

Lifer, from 1989 going forward, we played one money game a year. That was Steve Sloan's time as the AD, IIRC. In 1989, we played KSU, 1990, we played at A&M. In 1991, we played at OU. In 1992, we played at UT. In 1993, we played at Nebraska. In 1994, we played at Oklahoma State. Before Sloan left, he had realized that the way to making more money was to go up to I-A. Helwig figured out fairly quickly that playing multiple bodybag games, as well as 2 for 1 or 3 for 2 series at Texas Stadium with A&M and Tech would still provide net $$$ to us.

In 1995, our first year as a FBS program, granted we were independent, but we played this schedule on the road with no return game: @Mizzou, @ OU, @ LSU, @Alabama, @ Louisville

In 1996, our first in the Big West, we played @ A&M and @ Arizona State.

In 1998, we played @OU and @Arizona State, as well as the last game at A&M.

In 1999, we played @LSU. @ Tech (2nd of three visits to Lubbock), @ TCU (first of a 2 for 1)

In 2000, we played @Tech (last of the trips to Lubbock), @Kansas State

By 2001, Helwig was finished as the AD, even though his series were still to be played.

 

[UNTLifer]

The way you stated your original post looked like you were stating that we moved up when we realized we could infuse the budget with cash by playing body bqg games.  I apologize if that is not what you meant.

[UNT90]

6 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

The way you stated your original post looked like you were stating that we moved up when we realized we could infuse the budget with cash by playing body bqg games.  I apologize if that is not what you meant.

You make much much more playing a body bag game as an FBS than you do as an FCS.

How the hell do you think UNT can afford to pay an FCS to beat UNT 66-7? 

300k is less than $1 million.

Math.

Edited April 30, 2016 by UNT90

[UNTLifer]

I'm sorry.  Was I responding to you?  I would challenge you to show me how much we have made each year playing these games.  I would expect, with inflation factored in and the increased costs from FCS to FBS, that we make less now.

 

[caseyorourke]

Looks like now that Idaho is safely in the Big Sky fold, the conference now has New Mexico State in it's crosshairs.

Idaho now in the fold, the Big Sky is reportedly going after New Mexico State, too

That would bring the Big Sky membership for football to 15 with the possibility of going to 16 if we can entice another school to join up. 

Edited May 2, 2016 by caseyorourke

[oldguystudent]

Just looked at the 2015 Big Sky football standings.  I guess I'd never really thought about who is in that conference.  Idaho's going to fit nicely in there.  New Mexico St seems to be a little geographically out of place, but that's going to be true wherever they should end up.

I do wonder if this is the beginning of a trend, although I've always looked at Idaho, its location, and its resources, and wondered what it's been doing in FBS.  No looking down on them in that at all.  They're a fine program for the resources they've got and their fans were a#1 ok in my book.

[VideoEagle]

4 hours ago, caseyorourke said:

Looks like now that Idaho is safely in the Big Sky fold, the conference now has New Mexico State in it's crosshairs.

Idaho now in the fold, the Big Sky is reportedly going after New Mexico State, too

That would bring the Big Sky membership for football to 15 with the possibility of going to 16 if we can entice another school to join up. 

The courtship of NMSU by the Big Sky is going to be interesting to watch. On one hand, NMSU has playing in the highest division of college football since 1959. They never had to drop to 1AA/FCS. If you look at the historical data, you'll see they jumped back and forth between NCAA Univsity and College divisions after first playing in the University Division in 1946. That's a LOT of history. 

One the other hand, there's a difference between playing in the top division and playing competitively in that division. Location really hurts them. If they were 500 miles further East, they'd be a Sun Belt member without any issue. But they are not 500 miles west. The Belt took them in 2014 mostly out of mercy. When they joined the WAC in 2005, it was after the WAC looked at a LOT of other schools including UNT, Arky State, La-La and who knows whom else. They were the WAC's last choice. From what I understand, the SBC really didn't want them in 2001, but needed both them and ULM to have enough teams to form a conference. They joined the Big West as a life boat as the Missouri Valley Conference was shutting down full 1A football. They got into the Missouri Valley Conference along with West Texas State back in 1970 as back fills after Cincy and others left. In other words, they have been the last or almost last choice for the last several conferences they've joined. 

[Cerebus]

9 minutes ago, VideoEagle said:

One the other hand, there's a difference between playing in the top division and playing competitively in that division. Location really hurts them.

They could co-habitate with UNM, but their leadership and alumni hate each other in a UT/aTm sort of way, and has for decades.   If they had been able to sustain basketball success then the NCAA shares alone would get them a seat with CUSA, SBC or the MWC, but they haven't and they have very little to offer.

Writing is on the wall for them and I am very sad for them.  WE have played them more than any other school, and a lot of my Mean Green memories are tied up with them.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Cerebus

[untjim1995]

Idaho and NMSU provide excellent examples of why its so incredibly stupid to not have conferences at the G5 level and below being more regionalized. Nobody at UNT will ever care one iota about Old Dominion or Charlotte. Nobody at Georgia Southern will ever care about playing Texas State. But I bet Georgia Southern fans might have an interest in Charlotte's program, because of the closeness of the schools in the SE. I know that people in DFW could be enticed to go watch UNT play Texas State, but they have proven over and over that hosting Western Kentucky will never move the needle here for additional fans to come to the game.

I still believe that the many of the schools in the MAC, SBC, and CUSA are headed for the new I-aa within the next decade, to be paired with bigger programs in the Big Sky, Southland, and other larger FCS conferences. The MWC and AAC will look at adding value from these leagues, allowing for schools like UTEP and Rice to go west to the MWC, as well as Northern Illinois and Ohio to go to the AAC. When that occurs, going back to a SWC-type model will be the only way that these leagues will be able to turn a profit, just by keeping travel costs down and allowing fans to make trips to closer games.

Conferences that look like this are a very real possibility in the future:

 NMSU, UNT, UTSA, Texas State, Sam Houston, SFA, Arkansas State, ULL, ULM, and McNeese State

La Tech, USM, USA, Troy, FIU, FAU, Georgia State, Georgia Southern, MUTS,  and WKU

Appy State, ODU, Marshall, Charlotte, and teams from the SoCon, like The Citadel, Chattanooga, Samford, VMI, Furman, and Western Carolina.

The MAC, without NIU or Ohio, which would be at 10, as well.

The Big Sky

 

[Arkstfan]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 8:54 AM, VideoEagle said:

Not quite. The rule as written by the NCAA was the only (so far) retroactive requirement they ever passed. We would have had to declare Texas Stadium as our home field by 1979 or 1980 - I forget which - to avoid the demotion in 1982. @Arkstfan posted a list of the requirements to stay at 1A several years ago and I can't find it right now. But based on the way the rule was written, they only way we could have stayed 1A was to have taken action a year or two earlier. 

There was a story that circulated that all NT would have had to have done was fill out some form and we could have stayed 1A. I heard it from a very junior person in the athletic department back at the time. The magic form was never specifically identified, but probably was a request for a waiver. While many schools filled out these requests, not a single one was granted. Arkansas State managed to get their waiver request the farthest before the NCAA denied it and no other school was granted so much as a review of the request. So even filling out the magic form would not have prevented the drop down.  

One school, Cincinnati IIRC, threatened to sue and actually started the process. The NCAA allowed them to stay but it was because of the lawsuit and NOT a waiver request. 

What we could have done was move down in 82 and immediately started expanding Fouts and working to increase game attendance. To move back up, we needed both a larger stadium AND a higher average attendance. I think the average we would need was higher than the size of Fouts even after the expansion in 95. It would not have been easy and there's no certainty we could have gotten the attendance up high enough even with the expanded stadium. 

I think they will be the first school to ever VOLUNTARILY move down. 

To become I-A (in addition to playing the required schedule)

1. Average 17,000 paid attendance once in four years in a 30,000 seat stadium -OR-

2. Average 17,000 paid attendance over the past four years.

To remain I-A

Meet one of:

1. Average 17,000 paid attendance once in four years in a 30,000 seat stadium -OR-

2. Average 17,000 paid attendance over the past four years.

3. Average 20,000 home and away attendance over the past four years.

4. Average 20,000 home and away attendance once in the past four years if you had 30,000 seats.

5. Be a member of a conference where more than half of members meet I-A criteria.

 

Problem for UNT (and AState and others) was there was no compliance period. If you did not meet the standards 1-4 to remain I-A at the end of the 1981 season, you were I-AA. No grace period, no time to ramp up. UNT could not avail itself of options 3, 4 or 5 because all that mattered was what happened prior to the end of 1981 when the change was passed.

Without looking it up, I seem to recall UNT had a compliant schedule in 1982 and could have moved to Texas Stadium and if arrangements were made to sell sufficient tickets UNT would have been reclassified I-A for the 1983 season. There was no avoiding being I-AA in 1982.

Cincinnati did sue and the settlement agreement was that Cincy would remain I-A for 1982 BUT if they didn't meet I-A criteria in 1982 they would be reclassified I-AA in 1983.

There was an opportunity to seek a one year waiver at the NCAA convention and numerous schools applied. AState was the only one to get close and that was mainly because Larry Lacewell had a lot of coaching buddies who included his father's best friend, some guy named Paul Bryant from Alabama who campaigned for us.

[VideoEagle]

44 minutes ago, Arkstfan said:

To become I-A (in addition to playing the required schedule)

1. Average 17,000 paid attendance once in four years in a 30,000 seat stadium -OR-

2. Average 17,000 paid attendance over the past four years.

To remain I-A

Meet one of:

1. Average 17,000 paid attendance once in four years in a 30,000 seat stadium -OR-

2. Average 17,000 paid attendance over the past four years.

3. Average 20,000 home and away attendance over the past four years.

4. Average 20,000 home and away attendance once in the past four years if you had 30,000 seats.

5. Be a member of a conference where more than half of members meet I-A criteria.

 

Problem for UNT (and AState and others) was there was no compliance period. If you did not meet the standards 1-4 to remain I-A at the end of the 1981 season, you were I-AA. No grace period, no time to ramp up. UNT could not avail itself of options 3, 4 or 5 because all that mattered was what happened prior to the end of 1981 when the change was passed.

Without looking it up, I seem to recall UNT had a compliant schedule in 1982 and could have moved to Texas Stadium and if arrangements were made to sell sufficient tickets UNT would have been reclassified I-A for the 1983 season. There was no avoiding being I-AA in 1982.

Cincinnati did sue and the settlement agreement was that Cincy would remain I-A for 1982 BUT if they didn't meet I-A criteria in 1982 they would be reclassified I-AA in 1983.

There was an opportunity to seek a one year waiver at the NCAA convention and numerous schools applied. AState was the only one to get close and that was mainly because Larry Lacewell had a lot of coaching buddies who included his father's best friend, some guy named Paul Bryant from Alabama who campaigned for us.

Thanks. First, I"m going to copy and save the info above with a title that will let me FIND it again! Secondly, I knew AState's waiver application went farther because of some SEC support but I didn't know it was Bear Bryant personally supporting it. And even HE couldn't get it through. 

[Arkstfan]

NCAA Convention the year before Lacewell said he and Bear got blasted in the hotel bar and before the night was over had agreed to a game against Bama in Birmingham. Next day Bear called and said Larry did I agree to a game? Yes. Well are you at Arkansas State or South Arkansas now? Arkansas State. OK I was afraid you were NAIA and I was going to have to cancel.

When Bama and USC signed their famous series, Charlie Thorton said Bear walked in and said I need you to go on a trip with me. They drove to Birmingham and Charlie had no idea where they were going. They got on a plane in Birmingham and flew to LAX. Sat in a bar at the airport drinking and soon John McKay came in. Bear explained he wanted a home and home and why he wanted it. McKay pulled out a notebook and suggested dates. Bear told Charlie to write them down. Bear and McKay shook hands and went got on a plane back to Birmingham.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Arkstfan