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So...did you not get into Houston? Did they not like your ***'n essay? What happened, big guy?

Name calling is always a good way to debate. Totally agree. I mean we've been in the PAC-8 for years now and no one cares about USC. They're too far away. You didn't know we existed because of who we played? This one made my head explode. Do you have any newsletters to which I could subscribe ? I need to learn more about your way of thinking. I have stats proving that cheese is delicious! Do you have stats that prove you can drive to Texas from Florida in 8 hours? If you can find 10 people who either weren't coming already or didn't go to Texas State that would drive more than 30 minutes to see Texas State play football anywhere, I'll buy you an ice cream sandwich. (no offense to Texas State intended) Our attendance was bad then because the previous administrations didn't care about football, and ...dang it I actually started to answer your question Fact : We're not OU either! I deny having ever responded to this thread.

Maybe this game and this photo can live in UNT lore as the day we beat Western Kentucky and we can look back on it fondly 25 years from now and think of where our program could have been had the refs not screwed us out of a touchdown.

Let's talk about those groups. fat & lazy - Wonder why tailgating sucks this season, because we're spread out across four different area and you can't pull up and party out of your car. Parking in a remote location by yourself is lame. If you say you like tailgating alone at Fouts compared to last season, your lying to yourself. Cheap - Is this team worth paying $20 for parking and then having to hike to the stadium Aged - Another group that would probably like to be able park closer to the stadium. They might even pay to do, but what choice do they have if they didn't get parking pass at the start of the season. Child dragging - I bring my kid to the games and there are a lot less stroller this year than last year. It's not a lot of fun to haul junior from Fouts along a narrow winding sidewalk by the Myerson, across the bridge, and then through the windy hills to get to the stadium. So instead of just labeling folks "bad" fans, maybe we can address these issues. Winning makes the difference between "casual" fans attending the game, but these structural obstacles are keeping us from developing "core" fans.

I wasn't one of the whiners but I'll be attending the game.

Stadium location a problem? I mean, really?

I'm not sure if you are saying that we would never get above 17K vs UTSA. If you are, then I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. I didn't do an official count, but I'm guessing that WKU brought about 20 fans to a very important game. Plus do an unofficial survey of students. Would they be more interested in attending a game vs UTSA or WK-who? Does anyone think that UTSA would bring any less fans than WKU? Here's a little historical perspective. From the 2005 official football guide. Highest attended games at Fouts. 1. Baylor (2003) 29,437 2. Baylor (2000) 28,315 3. TCU (2001) 22, 837 4. SMU (1990) 22,750 (1-AA years) 5. McNeese (1994) 20,733 (1-AA years) 6. Montana (1994) 20,730 (1-AA years) 7. SFA (1989) 20,252 (1-AA years) 8. NMSU (2002) 20,064 9. ULL (2003) 19,271 10.UNLV (1999) 19,011 Yearly average attendance (selected years) During our "Bowl run"years 2001, 14,769 2002, 15,260 2003, 18,694 (boosted in large part by the Baylor game attendance) 2004, 15,184 Averages during our 1-AA days when we were nationally ranked on a fairly regular basis. 1986, 12,730,4 home games (record 6-4) 1987, 13,764,4 home games (record 7-5) 1988, 15,319,5 home games (record 8-4) 1989, 14,289,5 home games (record 5-6) 1990, 14,783,6 home games (record 6-5) What I'm seeing by looking at these numbers is that there was not a whole lot of difference in our attendance from our 1-AA days and our bowl run days. THIS STATEMENT DOES NOT MEAN I'M ADVOCATING A RETURN TO 1-AA. Opponents with better name recognition helps somewhat, but not all that much. So, I'm not the least bit inclined to sneer at the prospect of being in a conference with Texas St. and/or UTSA. They will bring in a hell of a lot more of their fans than FAU, FIU, WKU and Troy. ArkSt. and ULL do alright, but I would be willing to bet that UTSA and Tx St. fans would travel to Denton in much higher numbers on a regular basis than either of them. What I have advocated all along is that North Texas look at it's CULTURE as much, if not more, than it's conference affiliation.

Trying to be as objective as possible I come to this conclusion: UTSA has the better shot at filling the stadium while UNT has a better shot at fielding a better team. The UNT program is so much further than UTSA in facilities and alumni support that UTSA would need to have a series of miracles to pull make up the difference. There are no practice buildings and the basketball team plays in a terrible, hard-to-get-to facility. The Alamodome is awesome for football games, though. It is centrally located (down-effing-town) and has hotels, restaurants and stuff within walking distance. Gameday is fun because of all that stuff. The city has had twenty years of practice to get people in and out and entertained at that place. Students can hop on a bus from campus and get dropped off in front of the building, drink all day and get bussed back. It is kinda cool. Since we cannot do much about changing the football program, all we are left with regular citizen-type stuff. Ideally I would raze the Denia neighborhood (I got a BBA --so I have cold-blodded, evil business man thoughts in my head occasionally) and put destination-type stuff there. All that stuff around the Cinemark Denton should be closer to the Stadium. The good news is that developers are always looking to do that type of stuff. You as Denton Citizen can help it happen by voting in a city government willing to make it happen. If you'd rather Denton not be a sprawling mess with stripmalls on the southern side, clogging up your streets, and drunk off it's ass then well, keep doing what your doing. As is, we have to rely on the audience drawing force that is the Sun Belt residing UNT football team. We've already argued and discussed the (in)ability of the team to outdraw the Rangers, Texas-OU, TTU, cold-ish weather, nice days, Mexican Liberation Day, Shiny Things, and Twilight: I Was A Teenage Vampire Volume 1, Issue 6. Maybe we have to make it so no one has to drive around Denton to enjoy gameday (lazy bastards). Whatevs. If that can get people to make the trip up from Arlingame (inside joke) then let's do it, yo.

Since I see no introduction area and I really want to introduce myself before barging right in, I'll just do it here.... Hey everyone! My name is Danny and I'm from the great town of Melissa, TX. I'm currently a senior at the 2A high school (turning 3A when I leave), which is currently kicking major butt in most state-wide competitions. I joined the board because I'll be attending UNT come next academic year. I'll be a Computer Science major, and will hopefully be including the Game Programming concentration as well. Although UNT is already a great school, I do hope that, before I graduate from UNT, the athletics program will be much more respectable and that the university gains Tier One status. Gotta catch up to Houston somehow... GMG!

Here is the 2012 schedule. 9/1 @ LSU 9/8 VS. Texas Southern 9/15 @ Kansas State 10/5 @ Houston N/A @ ULM N/A vs. Troy N/A @ WKU N/A vs. FIU N/A @ MTSU N/A vs. ASU N/A @ FAU N/A vs. ULL * I don't know the date or time of any conference games, just which ones will be home/away next season. Looking at this realistically, we should go 1-3 in OOC. I'll get to the conference slate later. Our most notable losses will be Akpunku, Hill, Downing, Dunbar, and Tomlinson. *This is how I grade players: Bad, Below average, decent, above average, great, game changer Offense Returning starters- 9 Chris Bynes(WR) Ivan Delgado(WR) Brelan Chancellor(WR) A. Johnson(LT) Mason Y'Barbo(LG) A. Fortenberry© Cyril Lemon(RG) Andrew Power(TE) Derek Thompson(QB) The offense hasn't been great this year, but they have shown signs of being an above average unit. Returning 4/5 starters on the o line is going to be a boost for next season, as well as having Cam Feldt come in and take the RT spot as I expect him to while Boone plays backup at C/G and gets ready to contribute in 2013. Thompson has kind of been up and down, but for the most part, a decent player this season. Is he a world beater? No, but he's also just a sophmore, and with a year of experience under his belt, I think he'll be a good, not great player next season. The WR's got off to a slow start, but Bynes has been pretty good(if people can forget the two drops he had yesterday) Delgado emerged late too and has been consistent, and Chancellor is a decent player as well. We should be fine at WR next season provided we can find a 4th WR that warrants attention on obvious passing downs. Power is no A. Blount, but he is a decent run blocker and showed he can catch the ball against Troy, we'll also have Prior back when they want to go 2 TE. I fully expect this offense to pass a lot more next season, without a proven running back. I would assume Byrd will get the nod to start, but the offense should be much improved next season. I don't think Chico would have any job security issues, and maybe with a more pass oriented offense next season he'll feel more at home and be able to put the offense in a better position to win. Defense Returning starters- 7 Brandon McCoy (DE) Ryan Boutwell (DT) Tevinn Cantly (DT) Michael Stok (OLB) Zach Orr (MLB) Will Wright/Phillips (OLB) Freddie Warner (CB) I'm not sure who will be taking over the safety spots, from what I've read, Lamarie Lee is a great player, and should have a good shot at taking one of the spots, Kerry Swarn is another player that could get a safety spot, along with the incoming playr Devante Davis, we look to be pretty thin here in experience and depth. At corner, Warner will be a decent player, he proved it this year beating out the senior Steven Ford before being lost to injury for the year. The other corner spot will go to Marcus Trice who transferred from Oklahoma or Hilbert Jackson. I am not sold on Trice, just because we have a history of transfers not working out. The secondary is a major question mark and is the unit I am most concerned about going in to next season. At LB, we have three starters back, basically four with Phillips coming back after missing time. Although we lose Forlando Johnson and Julian Herron who were contributors, they weren't great players and we have younger linebackers that will be capable of spelling the starters adaquetly. We will be solid at LB and have two game changing potential all conference players there (Stok & Orr). On the defensive line, we'll be replacing AK47, which of course is going to be pretty much impossible. KC Obi will take over, and should be a decent player, Mccoy is a decent run stopping DE, but as per the usual, DT is a position in which we have below average players. Boutwell has heart, no one can deny that, but he's a DE playing as a DT giving up 50 pounds on every play. I would hope that he can gain 20-30 pounds in the offseason, come back to 2012 at 290 or so, and be an above average player, although those expectations might be unrealistic. Cantly is a pourus player, I know the run defense has improved, but the truth is just like the past 7 years, we need to try and find 2 or 3 JUCO DT's that can contribute immediately. Cantly is just not the answer even though he has the size. If we can find a decent replacement for Cantly and KC Obi or Everman or Lincoln step and become decent players, then our front seven will be top 3 in the sun belt. If that doesn't happen, we'll be a middle of the pack defense again, because breaking in 4 new starters in the secondary is going to be brutal. Conference games. N/A @ ULM N/A vs. Troy N/A @ WKU N/A vs. FIU N/A @ MTSU N/A vs. ASU N/A @ FAU N/A vs. ULL If we go 1-3 OOC, we have to win 5 conference games to have a shot at a bowl. The schedule could not be set up better for next season, we have the best three teams at home, and the only tough road game will be WKU who I imagine will be worse next season after losing Rainey. If we can go 2-2 at home at minimum, then we can go 3-1 on the road at minimum. MT/FAU/ULM will not be good teams next season, UlM will be the best of the bunch, and I think we're better than them. We should have a good shot at beating WKU, but ASU/ULL look like they will be very strong next year, specifically ASU because Aplin is only a junior this year. FIU will be down after losing Hilton, Troy will still be rebuilding next season, and it looks like there's only two teams that will be clearly better than us at the beginning of next year. Folks, we have 16 starters coming back, a great conference schedule, and atleast 1 easy OOC game. I don't think it would be out of the question to say we'll win 7 games next year. We can easily go 6-2 in conference and take the game against Texas Southern. So stop all this doom and gloom, the truth is, if Dodge was allowed to stay to open this stadium, this team would have 1 or 2 wins right now. The coaches know what they're doing and are doing the best with what they've got, which isn't much. However, Dodge did leave behind some younger players that will be above average sun belt players next season, and we have 9 of them back on offense next season. Calm down, the future is bright regardless of what conference we're in. Finishing at worst 4-8 this season is a huge improvement. I know, we all want success now, but the truth is, quite a few of these players aren't FBS material, that's why we have so many FR/SO playing. Now give those young guys a year or two to progress, and I have no doubt we'll be a bowl team. And we will be a bowl team in either 2012 oe 2013. Just have patience folks, there's a lot to be proud of, and Johnny Jones has been my savior for making me forget about football the past 5 years, so get on the basketball bandwagon, and soon enough it will be spring ball. GO MEAN GREEN

It's so crazy it probably won't work on the football board. One of the things that really was concerning against WKU was the difference in line play. We had more weapons on offense but the offense didn't make plays when given the chance. Most of the time at home this year they have. I'm going to chalk it up to sometimes things happen. I was really impressed with DT. He made a lot of great throws, with the TD to Chancellor being a highlight That was a beauty. His receivers let him down quite a bit, but to his credit he kept trying to pump them up on the bench. He's no running threat but has improved greatly this season. I was also impressed with the playcalling. We really mixed it up and despite the lack of running game we could have made plays, we just didn't. The bigger concern was the fact Rainey was often 2-3 yards in plus territory before he even had to make someone miss. We missed Orr big time. Lack of depth on the d-line was also a factor. Even so, the defense was getting some 3 and outs in the 4th but the O couldn't respond. It was just one of those games where everyone couldn't get on the same page at the same time. What did you guys see?

You're not a bad fan. But it's not as much about the teams as you think it is. Let's say we were 10-0 going into the game last week with wins with this schedule. FIU Vanderbilt James Madison Toledo Bryant FAU ULL ULM Ark. St Troy What I just did there was use our Sun belt schedule and then replaced the 4 OCC games with the team ranked one place higher in Sagarin's rankings than the same team Houston has played on their schedule. Vanderbilt 51 (for UCLA) James Madison 128 (for Us) Toledo 53 (for La. Tech) and Bryant 205 (for Georgia St.) We probably would have had a nearly packed or packed house. The problem is mostly wins not who we play. What we have to stop doing is scheduling 4 games that we will mostly likely lose OCC. The extra 10K fans that bandwagon come to those games, see us get smacked and say to themselves, oh well we still aren't good, maybe next year. And then they don't pay attention no matter what happens. If and only if we were ablt to run the table in conference like we did with Dickey, people start to pay attention again by the last game or maybe two. EDIT: Sorry I edited because I had typed Georgia Tech rather than Georgia St.

GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN!!!! Our basketball team don't play no defense, our stadium was built in the wrong place, and our AD screws it's best fans!!! RUN FAR AND FAST AWAY!!

Please look at some of the nuggets in this thread as feedback, not moaning and groaning. For the people who have upclose parking (MGC) it is difficult to realize what some people who don't go through on gameday. The 81 year old is a perfect example. We do not have a clear system for those with mobility issues. Let's get a clear system for those with mobility issues set and communicated before the next game. The same can be said for very overweight people, people with injuries, people lugging over multiple small children. The bridge is a year away. We have 1 more game with 2 weeks of opportunity. If we wait until next year to address the transfer challenges so be it. But every piece of feedback from people who experience the Mean Green in different ways should be appreciated. Yes our crew plans on providing that feedback to the Athletic department at the end of the year. But what about the athletic department sending out a survey monkey survey or something that solicits raw honest feedback from all season ticket holders. All Mean Green Club members. All one time ticket buyers. Multiple time ticket buyers. Visiting guests. Think about the wealth of information you could mine from simply asking a few targeted questions and an open comments section. Also as a Mean Green guest I want that survey to find me. I want to do as little as possible to provide you my valuable feedback. I am speaking as the casual fan here and not the Mean Green diehard I am. But make it easy for the groups above to participate. If there are extra Mean Green towels or commemorative anything incentivize our guests and get that feedback. For the record my crew will be there at 8:00 AM on 12.3. We will see the same security officer who always asks us if we know the drop off policy (we dig him because we have seen him 5 times this year with the same vehicles and we assure him we know the routine. He is great!) Full on bloody mary bar, brunch tailgate, UNT win and 5-7 record, 1 hour post game wait beverage, departure from Apogee with sad face in tow because Year 1 is over.) GMG

I'm not that worried about who fills in our secondary because we came into this season with them being our most experienced returning Corp and the results were dissapoinitning. But Trice was seeing SP time as a true freshman at OU. He will be one of the starting four back there, no doubt. I have high expectations for Abby. He's big and can run and loves to hit. It's interesting that you consider Boutwell undersized and not Apunku? Even wKY went into Baton Rouge a week ago with every intention of beating LSU, and for a while they looked like they had a chance. It's time this team at North Texas get the same attitude. Rick

Anything schedule that has less than 6 home games per year is not-acceptable....and for a school that has been told we are cutting back on money games...it is very sad.

Have we really stooped so low that we're actually blaming the location of Apogee for the lack of attendance? I thought I had seen it all...

But without LSU on the schedule as the first game, that would mean Texas Southern would be the first. How is our team going to GEL? We can't prepare to go against a Billy S. coached team by playing a bunch of FCS patsies.

When do we get our shot at Duke, Minnesota and Kentucky?

For fans like you and me, we understand that it isn't terrible. For a casual observer, getting beat by a Western Kentucky Hill Topper is comedy.

Why are we arguing with a guy who doesn't even know what conferences we've been in?

Who do you honestly think will sell more season tickets in 2012 ,UTSA or UNT ?

Let the first year wear off and see what happens.

I already knew UNT had been looking at him for sometime. That was my question, if they had been around how could they not be throwing the full court press to get Cameron. And I still don't understand it.

She's old news. My new horse in this race is Zachary Azzanni.

And if she doesn't Johnny Jones should be fired immediately.

I just don't get how people can be disappointed in where this program is headed.

At this stage no one knows but I just feel fairly confident that we are in CUSA or the MWC on the next realignment. The reason won't be our improvement in record or big increase in attendance although there was movement in the right direction on both. It will mainly be due to market, size, location, facilities and financial commitment. The only potential candidate in CUSA with better qualifications than us would be Temple. La Tech has a better winning tradition but is pretty far behind in the other categories except attendance. We have had the larger crowds but a lower average. We would be #1 in the Mountain West based on those categories. Basketball would be a plus for us except against Temple in CUSA and Utah State in the MWC. It's not so much that we are great as it is that others are not exceptional.

Agree to the point that Denton sucks when it comes to supporting UNT. Other than that, the location should not be an issue.

I don't understand why we don't run shuttles on the 30 minutes to the other side of the stadium. Literally an oversized golf cart running back and forth from each side. I know people will say "Stop being lazy." But some people just don't travel as easily for numerous reasons and we must do EVERYTHING IN OUR POWER TO SERVE THE FANS. They are paying good money to support our University and if we don't have a service first attitude in all that we do we are creating self-inflicted wounds. GMG

What are the WAC policies on fans cussing? We need to explore this.

If that indeed is a problem then we seriously have much bigger problems with our students and fanbase than I thought.

I'm OK with most any AQ team but the top 2/3's of the SEC and OU. As long as they're a school that will at least give us a 2 for 1. LSU, Bama, and OU in particular get old. Texas is OK every once in awhile, because I'm hoping we can catch them when we're up and they're down. Time to rally the troops Dan, because we got them not too far down the road.

Expectations of having butts fill the seats in our brand spanking new stadium on a regular basis this season. Regardless of thread title, what else do you think the majority of these threads have been discussing since the game yesterday? I think many people who bothered to attend the game are even more pissed about the "non-published" attendance than they are about the loss. Oh well.

Yes, opening at LSU always gives me that calm, warm, fuzzy feeling inside. Otherwise a nice writeup. Except that we really do have a lot of holes to fill w/o JC help. I'd be surprised, but I hope he's not averse to going fairly heavy JC this year, because I see the need for help at WR, DL, DB, and for overall depth if we are to make a major step up in 2012. Let's also pray that we don't have much in the way of defections and injuries as well.

I'm impressed with what UTSA has done so far. I hope UNT is scheduling a home and home against them and considering one with Texas State as well.

Long reply...I was actually saying the same as you. Attendance would be in the 20k's for every game, no matter what the circumstances are. So yea, same as you said, except much (much) more concise.

So you're saying that the little FCS program that moved up only a few years ago has already passed us ?

The first, and probably last time I will agree with one od your posts. MDH is right, nights like last night are embarrassing. Harry's defenses are just going up because of his love for the school. But let's be honest, just because we have a history of mediocrity and embarrassing football moments, doesn't mean we should just accept it continuing, as Harry implies.

Right. And I'm willing to bet there were three to four of those conversions to Doyle in which he caught the ball then had 3 to 5 yards after catch because the defender grabbed him up high around the shoulders and he drug them for the conversion? I'd hate to be in the film room this morning. Rick

The WAC has ridiculous travel times, TV starts late at night and may be worse than the Belt now. Going down to FCS is never going to happen, but if it did, bringing teams like McNeese, Central Arkansas and Stephen F. Austin to town is not going to excite anybody but you. Staying in the Sun Belt makes the most sense until/unless we get a CUSA or MWC invite. It is what it is. When we were good in the Belt, fans showed up.

Not bad considering this was the last weekend opportunity to do xmas shopping prior to the holiday shopping season when there's tons of people out.

I've never been the biggest fan of the Sunbelt but don't blame the conference for our 7 years of god awful suckdom. It's like blaming SMU for our historical track record of sucking and not advancing our athletic programs. Get real.

I would say its about right. There were a lot more people than the FAU game, but less than homecoming

That was part of the promotion. You wouldn't have to see the poor tackling, dropped balls, interceptions, etc.

Not bad at all for this time of the season.

Yes, it's a ripoff of the Marshall chant. I heard Penn State fans use it last week against Nebraska ....thought it would sound good with our double-name too. Besides, we need a new chant for the football games.

Sa-Weet!!! MY school district is off all next week. I'll definitely be there. It'll be my first road game to go to for the Basketball team (not counting tournament). Do I buy tickets when I get there? Ahead of time? How does that work?

I think it's Todd Dodge.

Collin's eligibility ran out at the end of last season. 'Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt. Abraham Lincoln